Who are, "Those thou hast given to me..."

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes it is, but sometimes even "man created traditions" can be comforting and used by God to touch peoples lives. At my church, we do not have altar calls or invitations, something I like. Most at my church who wish to make public their relationship with God do so in most cases through small groups and their leaders as well as meeting with our pastor and staff. I myself made my profession of faith and relationship publicly through an invitation in our Church in Germany. It was, at the time, an accepted tradition, a very pleasant memory for me. At this point in my life, I much prefer to discuss matters with individuals and appreciate when they articulate where they are with respect to God.

As you said..."A Tradition" ....personally I dont care for it & its not a necessity to salvation. I was saved without it as were many others. better a person should just go & speak privately to his or her pastor rather than making ah.... er .... a tradition out of it. I concur with your statement above.

 

[humblethinker]

No....Pharoah was the only open theist there......it did not work out well for him.

Haha, he might have been! Lol Maybe he was more of an Open Pantheist though... Maybe he was a determinist since he was so determined! ;-)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So help me to understand, Van is advocating that all Calvinists are really predestinarians, which teach that God is the author of sin. Am I correct?

 

[quantumfaith]

As you said..."A Tradition" ....personally I dont care for it & its not a necessity to salvation. I was saved without it as were many others. better a person should just go & speak privately to his or her pastor rather than making ah.... er .... a tradition out of it. I concur with your statement above.

EWF, my point is we All (even yourself) grow up and mature in some form of social tradition and culture. It is an unavoidable quality of our human existence. Sometimes (perhaps much of the time) those traditions and characteristics passed to us by parents and other influential people are not entirely accurate or correct, but they often are guided but what influenced them, and they seek to do "right by us" without malevolence. So as an adult, (somewhat matured) I often look back "nostalgically" with warm memories on traditions given to me by my parents and others, while also acknowledging that were often wrong......and so shall I be. This is one reason why I think God dealing with mankind centers around the "intent" of the heart.

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For the LORD does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart (1 Sam 16:7)."


"I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings (Jeremiah 17:10-11)."


"As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever (1 Chronicles 28:9).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF, my point is we All (even yourself) grow up and mature in some form of social tradition and culture. It is an unavoidable quality of our human existence. Sometimes (perhaps much of the time) those traditions and characteristics passed to us by parents and other influential people are not entirely accurate or correct, but they often are guided but what influenced them, and they seek to do "right by us" without malevolence. So as an adult, (somewhat matured) I often look back "nostalgically" with warm memories on traditions given to me by my parents and others, while also acknowledging that were often wrong......and so shall I be. This is one reason why I think God dealing with mankind centers around the "intent" of the heart.

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For the LORD does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart (1 Sam 16:7)."


"I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings (Jeremiah 17:10-11)."


"As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever (1 Chronicles 28:9).

Then Thinkingstuff, who I value as a brother, would be correct in his decision to move back to the RCC because that is his own family tradition.

Now I understand what your saying but my brother in Christ, please allow me to site that that is tad amount to being nostalgic & sentimental.

My family, on my mothers side, have registered me as a "Son of Filito" (small town in Italy) & every year they all get together in Old Forge Pa to do a procession with a statue of the Virgin Mary paraded through town. It is, for all intents & purposes, part of my families (on moms side) tradition.... first, the food is great & the people are all warm & loving, but do I revert to Italian Catholic ways & traditions? Certainly not. I have been Saved by the blood of Jesus Christ & by the intentions of God our Father & the actions of the Holy Spirit. So I cannot revert back to the sinful man I was & I cant even go to that Italian event because it " NO LONGER REPRESENTS MY CHRISTIAN BELIEFS & FAITH"

I also dont need all those delicious calories....I dont want to look like my Governor, Chris Christy...LOL!

 

[Van]

So help me to understand, Van is advocating that all Calvinists are really predestinarians, which teach that God is the author of sin. Am I correct?

Yes and no, all Calvinists who accept the WCF statement, God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, actually believe in exhaustive determinism. However, the next line from the WCF says God is not the author of sin. They do not explain how everything is predestined by God yet He is not the author of sin. Additionally, most Calvinists accept the logical necessity that God knowing the future exhaustively means it is closed, fixed, settled, and therefore all our "choices" have been predetermined by God. Again how this view avoids God predetermining each and every choice we make to sin is referred to as a mystery.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes and no, all Calvinists who accept the WCF statement, God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, actually believe in exhaustive determinism. However, the next line from the WCF says God is not the author of sin. They do not explain how everything is predestined by God yet He is not the author of sin. Additionally, most Calvinists accept the logical necessity that God knowing the future exhaustively means it is closed, fixed, settled, and therefore all our "choices" have been predetermined by God. Again how this view avoids God predetermining each and every choice we make to sin is referred to as a mystery.

ALL choices are known perfectly, right now, by God, as some of those decisions/events He willed to happen directly, other willed to allow it to happen!

All things still under His direct control, but NOT directly caused!

 

[humblethinker]

All things still under His direct control, but NOT directly caused!

maybe you can help me understand your point by giving me an illustration of a real world situation that would demonstrate this 'controller that is not a causer' idea.

 

[Yeshua1]

maybe you can help me understand your point by giving me an illustration of a real world situation that would demonstrate this 'controller that is not a causer' idea.

The Cross of yeshua, as God had predetermined that he would come to die on it, yet still was also due the plans and actions of sinful men!

He did not "force' them to do it!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes and no, all Calvinists who accept the WCF statement, God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, actually believe in exhaustive determinism. However, the next line from the WCF says God is not the author of sin. They do not explain how everything is predestined by God yet He is not the author of sin. Additionally, most Calvinists accept the logical necessity that God knowing the future exhaustively means it is closed, fixed, settled, and therefore all our "choices" have been predetermined by God. Again how this view avoids God predetermining each and every choice we make to sin is referred to as a mystery.

LOL, yea well I was in another forum recently just chock full of ehhh "academics" who couldnt explain Scriptural doctrine to save their lives, much less their immortal souls but they will debate if they are Infralapsarianism or Supralapsarianism..... who gives a fig! Sure that when we get before the Lord on the last day, that will be a critical criterion for gettin to heaven. ROFL.

Anyway, I hope your not confusing Predestination with Fatalism.... and thats a big mistake! If you start with the Doctrine of Election, it tells us that God chose His people. Predestination tells us that His people will be "conformed to the image of his son." ... one follows after the other.

If you look at the scripture that points to Predestination (Romans 8:29 ; Ephesians 1:3-6 :
Ephesians 1:11-12 .... you will see a pattern. The scriptures are always referencing people & not events.

So here is what I humbly conclude..... "God did not predestine all things that transpire. He did however predestine all whom He foreknew". Thats what the bible says & I am stickin to it. I am not delving deeper ..... rather, I am sticking to the subject matter & defining Predestination as the bible has it written....nothin more & nothing less.

 

[Van]

Hi EWF, lets see if you can agree that Calvinism teaches God predestines everything. Not just people's choices, but everything, concerning the earth, wind and fire.

Predestination does not refer to people but to circumstances. We are predestined to be conformed. We are predestined to adoption. We are predestined to an inheritance. And we receive these blessings when we are "in the Beloved."

Now who did God foreknow? He knew He had chosen His Redeemer and that His Redeemer would redeem those that love God. God's plan of redemption was to redeem whoever believes in Him, and these who He foreknew, corporately, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hi EWF, lets see if you can agree that Calvinism teaches God predestines everything. Not just people's choices, but everything, concerning the earth, wind and fire.

Predestination does not refer to people but to circumstances. We are predestined to be conformed. We are predestined to adoption. We are predestined to an inheritance. And we receive these blessings when we are "in the Beloved."

Now who did God foreknow? He knew He had chosen His Redeemer and that His Redeemer would redeem those that love God. God's plan of redemption was to redeem whoever believes in Him, and these who He foreknew, corporately, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Please note that I am not a Calvinist, but your suggestion would make them, from my perspective anyway, more like Fatalists (everything that occurs has been predetermined/ Absolute Predestination of All Things). I dont believe that....indeed I sincerely hope it is NOT a doctrine being paraded around anywhere....but thats a whole other conversation). Your question would be more appropriately posed to someone who claims to be a Calvinist.

 

[humblethinker]

Please note that I am not a Calvinist, but your suggestion would make them, from my perspective anyway, more like Fatalists (everything that occurs has been predetermined/ Absolute Predestination of All Things). I dont believe that....indeed I sincerely hope it is NOT a doctrine being paraded around anywhere....but thats a whole other conversation). Your question would be more appropriately posed to someone who claims to be a Calvinist.

It's funny to me how my perception and judgement differs from other people's. This has taught me, and it seems like I still am learning, to clarify and verify what people seem to be saying and meaning.

It seems like there are at least a few here on bb that would match van's description and at most all of them. How would they differentiate between fatalism and their calvinism. I'm not arguing that that can't, I'm genuinely curious how they would deny the logical extension of their belief being ultimately fatalistic. I may have a misunderstanding of what fatalism is though. Like you said, this would prolly need a new thread.

 

[Iconoclast]

humblethinker;
How would they differentiate between fatalism and their calvinism. I'm not arguing that that can't, I'm genuinely curious how they would deny the logical extension of their belief being ultimately fatalistic. I may have a misunderstanding of what fatalism is though. Like you said, this would prolly need a new thread.[/QUOTE]

God's decree is His eternal design by which he orders His perfect redemptive plan,concerning His elect as to it's purpose,and exactly how it will come to pass.

Fatalism is the islamic idea of blind impersonal fate....what will be will be , not because of a holy God's design....but by chance, random forces set in motion without any control.

 

[AresMan]

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

By the way, I like to use 1Co 15:3 against mid-Acts dispensationalists (their very own magnum opus for "today's gospel"). Yes, Paul said that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. Can we say Isaiah 53:4-6?

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

If Christ died for our sins "according to the Scriptures," how can the Body of Christ be ontologically distinct from the Israel to whom Isaiah 53 was written?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

By the way, I like to use 1Co 15:3 against mid-Acts dispensationalists (their very own magnum opus for "today's gospel"). Yes, Paul said that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. Can we say Isaiah 53:4-6?

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

If Christ died for our sins "according to the Scriptures," how can the Body of Christ be ontologically distinct from the Israel to whom Isaiah 53 was written?

The short answer is that the "Church" is not always thought of as being as "Universal" as the set of: (All for whom Christ died)....There is a confusion of terms on this thread....

There are plenty of people who simply do not believe that the Scriptures teach that the "Church" is proplerly defined as being....Everyone of all ages, for whom Christ died and who will be in heaven. Until that distinction is worked around, and everyone is capable of speaking using terms which are Universally agreed upon, then people will continue to speak past one another. Many Baptists still think of the "Church" as a distinct and Institutional specific body, which does not even encompass the entirety of ALL New Testament Saints...let alone the Old Testament ones. Nor all of the "Elect" as you might like to call them. You guys are speaking past one another. They simply may not understand your objections.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

humblethinker;
How would they differentiate between fatalism and their calvinism. I'm not arguing that that can't, I'm genuinely curious how they would deny the logical extension of their belief being ultimately fatalistic. I may have a misunderstanding of what fatalism is though. Like you said, this would prolly need a new thread.

God's decree is His eternal design by which he orders His perfect redemptive plan,concerning His elect as to it's purpose,and exactly how it will come to pass.

Fatalism is the islamic idea of blind impersonal fate....what will be will be , not because of a holy God's design....but by chance, random forces set in motion without any control.[/QUOTE]

BINGO! AKA Serendipity, Karma, Kismet

Also, the Bible and the London Confession of Faith use the term predestinate in reference only to the salvation of the people of God, and never in reference to sin or damnation.

 

[reformed_baptist]

Calvinists often use John 6 as a proof text to support their premise, but doesn't it help to understand WHO Christ may be referring to when he speaks of those who have been given to him?

Let's read later in the name gospel (chapter 17) where Jesus clearly shows us what he is speaking about when He speaks of 'those thou hast given..."

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. {sanctified...: or, truly sanctified}
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. (Joh 17:6-26 KJV)​

Clearly, those given to Christ while on earth were the appointed messengers of Israel who were to fulfill the purpose of Israel's election by taking the message of redemption to the world. The rest of Israel was being hardened (John 12:39) which is why they were unable to come to Christ. It was only after Christ was lifted up that he sent these appointed messengers (and the Spirit to indwell them) to proclaim the gospel, by which he would 'draw all men to himself.' (John 12:32)

This is the context in which we must understand John 6.

now even your interpretation of John 17 and our Lord's high priestly prayer is correct, upon what exegetical basis do you link this to John 6?

 

[Skandelon]

what exegetical basis do you link this to John 6?

On what exegetical basis to you NOT link two chapters from the same gospel which both refer to 'those God has given Him?'

 

[SovereignMercy]

On what exegetical basis to you NOT link two chapters from the same gospel which both refer to 'those God has given Him?'

X2. "Free will" is the invention of the devil. Remember Satan told Eve she would be like God if she disobeyed Him. Only God has free will.

But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.