Nope. I am saying that your father is the devil and you abuse the scriptures like your father does.
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Who changed the sabbath?
- Thread starter Jason1
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So its an abuse to actually divide the scriptures correctly, especially when it goes against marcion's theology?
How do people think its a heresy when someone says that obedience is required? Have they not read the scriptures themselves?
Jason, you do not know YHWH. You are not understanding God's word. You think you do. You are blind and deaf to the Spirit of God. It is vain to talk with you as long as your heart is stiff and hardened by your spiritual deadness.
How do we know YHVH?
1Jn_2:3 And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands.
1Jn_2:4 The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Who is blind or deaf? It is the one who does not see or hear His voice (word - torah)1Jn_2:4 The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Who is stiff necked? One who will not obey
Who is hardened? The rebellious and disobedient
Who is spiritually dead? The one who will not obey
Do all of these accusations fit you or me better according to the words spoken on this forum? It is pretty clear cut.
Jason, you deny that Yeshua is YHWH. The verse you quote condemns you.
It can be - even Satan said "Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" Gen 3:1)
I never have. You seem to deny that He is the word (torah)
Quoting scripture is not bad. What satan was doing was causing doubt about what YHVH said and told a lie:
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said to the woman, “You shall certainly not die.
Gen 3:5 “For Elohim knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be like Elohim, knowing good and evil.”
This is opposite what YHVH said:Gen 3:5 “For Elohim knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be like Elohim, knowing good and evil.”
Gen 2:17 but do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for in the day that you eat of it you shall certainly die.”
So now we see a similar situation where YHVH says: "Keep the sabbath on the 7th day" and then we have the churches say "The sabbath is done away with". Now which one is acting as satan?
Jason the Law was never given to fallen man to justify him or a means to obtain life. Paul is crystal clear about this in both Romans 3:9-21 and Galatians 3:19-24. Paul clearly states what God's purpose for giving the law was all about - to educate man what sin is (Rom. 3:21). Salvation has always been by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2). Abraham is said to be the "father" of all who believe and Abraham was pre-Moses. All pre-cross saints entered into spiritual rest when they believed in Christ (Heb. 4:2-8) as his work was finished from the foundation of the world with regard to God's eternal purpose which by faith was actually obtained and received through faith. We have a better day of worship that commemorates a greater work (redemption) and is a reminder of a greater creation to come that is without sin and some day we will enter into that eternal rest (heb. 4:11).
There is a disconnect in understanding Paul. Who is Yeshua? He is the "Word". What does this mean? It means he is the instructions of the Father and walks them perfectly (as we are told to).
It is our life:
Deu_32:47 “For it is not a worthless Word for you, because it is your life, and by this Word you prolong your days on the soil which you pass over the Yardĕn to possess.”
It is our righteousness:
Deu_6:25 ‘And it is righteousness for us when we guard to do all this command before יהוה our Elohim, as He has commanded us.’
Rom_10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Hos 14:9 Who is wise and understands these words, discerning and knows them? For the ways of יהוה are straight, and the righteous walk in them, but the transgressors stumble in them.
Jas_2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Where is the problem with Paul? It is because he uses the same word "law" is used for both oral law and written law in his letters and his point often is that justification can't be found in oral law. Rom_10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Hos 14:9 Who is wise and understands these words, discerning and knows them? For the ways of יהוה are straight, and the righteous walk in them, but the transgressors stumble in them.
Jas_2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Sabbath is indeed a foreshadow of a future time (millennial reign). This in no way negates the observance of the weekly sabbath and those that proclaim so are very foolish. Man is given 6000 years (6 days) to do all his ways, but the 7th (7000) is when the torah will go forth from Jerusalem and Yeshua reign with an iron rod.
Isa 2:3 And many peoples shall come and say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of יהוה, to the House of the Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ, and let Him teach us His ways, and let us walk in His paths, for out of Tsiyon comes forth the Torah, and the Word of יהוה from Yerushalayim.” Footnote: 1His ways, His paths, the teaching and the Word of יהוה are used synonymously
When satan does it.
Matthew 4
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
HankD
No, there is no disconnect at all in understanding Paul. Paul taught precisely what Jesus taught and Jesus interpreted the law on a high level than Judaism. If you want to keep the law in order to be justified then Jesus provides the standard - "Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your father in heaven is perfect." The law requires sinless perfection to be justified by it and to sin in one point is to violate every point (James 2:10-11). How are you doing so far in keeping the Law Jason? Jesus said, except your righteousness EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees you shall no wise enter into heaven. Of them he said outwardly they were whited seplechures or spotless. How are you doing so far in keeping the Law Jason?
So you must EXCEED the righteousness of the best of religious men and EQUAL the righteousness of God so that you do not fail in one point, for if you fail in one point you fall under the eternal condemnation of the Law.
That is why you need to trust in Jesus to have kept the law in your place, and satisfied it completely in your behalf. That is what it means to be justified "by faith" rather than by your own works.
You are taking the scripture out of its context. What is the contexual point John is making in John 1:1-3? The only way you can understand what is going on inside the mind of another person is for them to reveal it by words. Jesus is the INCARNATE PERSONAL VISIBLE EXPRESSION of the INVISIBLE God and that is the point in John 1:1-3. The written word is a WRITTEN REVELATION of the Invisible God. Don't confuse the two as you are doing.
No it is not our righteousness, but it is the standard of God's righteousness that we must EQUAL ("even as") IF we are going to reject Christ and his righteous provision for us and attempt to obtain it by our own works. Whenever anyone asked Jesus "what must I DO to inherit eternal life" Jesus had only one response - DO THIS and LIVE (the law). But to fail in one point was to be condemned to eternal DEATH.
That is simply not true. He is not speaking of the "oral" law in Romans 2:16-21 or 3:1-5; 9-21 but the written law of Moses as he quotes several of the Ten Commandments given by Moses and they were written on stone and then written in Exodus and Deuternomy. That is not true in James 2:10-11 or in Galatians as he is speaking about the law of circumcision which is found in the written law.
This is a problem in understanding again. The pharisees were hypocrites and added to the torah and made it hard to bear. So the way to be more righteous than they were is to do exactly as Yeshua and Paul says: follow the written word only in sincerity and truth.
This is also a totally false teaching by the church. Yeshua didn't keep the law on your behalf and make it so you don't have to. That is completely idiotic. What he did was keep it perfectly as an example and to be a perfect sacrifice that is unblemished by sin. Being justified by faith is more than just believing, it is trusting and obeying (not believing and disobeying).
Yeshua is the word made flesh. He is called this over and over. He is the written word acted out and he is also the right arm of YHVH that enforces it (He will be judge and king).
Do you know the terms of the covenant? Obedience is required and when we fail we have an advocate with the Father. Yeshua wipes the slate clean when we accept His sacrifice and he restores us back to covenant with the Father. It is then our duty to obey and walk in newness of life.
Galations is all about oral law and the method of entry that judaism uses with new converts (circumcision). It is a tough book to understand until you have this key. James was not talking about oral law as you said, but keep reading him because he does talk about works being required.
Anyone claiming we don't have to obey is deceived beyond measure. It doesn't even make sense and is churchified in mysticism.
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Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Jason, Do you have children? Do you think you would stone them to death for repeated disobedience? Do you wear clothes that are comprised of mixed fabrics?
We are not subject to the 613 Jewish laws.
Colossians 2:16
16 Therefore, don’t let anyone judge you in regard to food and drink or in the matter of a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.
Jason thinks we are subject to all those laws and as he tries to straddle the OT/NT fence. When is comes to the NT beliefs he says we must follow the OT, but then he does not even follow the OT commands as it says we should. (See our conversation on keeping kosher) As for the NT and what it really says, well, forget about that - gotta go back to the OT. Duh!
It's either one or the other and our friend just can't choose so that leaves him completely confused. It's called the
Church of Jason.
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These are not jewish laws. They were given to all 12 tribes of Israel to do as terms of the covenant of them being YHVH's people and He their Mighty One. If you want to join yourself into that covenant, you have to be engrafted into the tree of Israel and be partakers of the blessing. If not, you have no covenant (look who it is made with).
Your collossians verse is taken out of context. It has nothing to do with actually observing any of the sabbaths.
True believers are to live by every word that comes out of the mouth of YHVH. Satanic churches say otherwise. As for Adonai's comment, he has no clue about oral law vs written law and is totally confused in this respect.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Jason thinks we are subject to all those laws and as he tries to straddle the OT/NT fence. When is comes to the NT beliefs he says we must follow the OT, but then he does not even follow the OT commands as it says we should. (See our conversation on keeping kosher) As for the NT and what it really says, well, forget about that - gotta go back to the OT. Duh!
It's either one or the other and our friend just can't choose so that leaves him completely confused. It's called the
Thanks, your perspective is very helpful.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Jason thinks we are subject to all those laws and as he tries to straddle the OT/NT fence. When is comes to the NT beliefs he says we must follow the OT, but then he does not even follow the OT commands as it says we should. (See our conversation on keeping kosher) As for the NT and what it really says, well, forget about that - gotta go back to the OT. Duh!
It's either one or the other and our friend just can't choose so that leaves him completely confused. It's called the
Thanks, your perspective is very helpful.
I see, you make it up as you go along.
Titus 3:9-11New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
I will pray that God will give you understanding.
This is what I believe:
One cannot ignore what you call the "oral" law. The oral law comes from the written law, given to the world by those whom God has placed here as teachers. God states what He wants done in broad terms and then His chosen teachers pick it up from there. So in the end, it all really becomes part of the written law. THEY CANNOT BE SEPERATED!
I pointed all this out to you from Deuteronomy as regards the choosing of Rabbis, who then have the complete confidence of God Himself to decide things for the people. His law is their law, their law is His law.
You yourself are trying to be one of those "teachers" of both the OT and the NT (Boy, you are so super!) but in reality you are:
A. Not chosen by God to be one.
B. Out of your league and completely unqualified.
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