Who Chooses?

[TheOneWhoLives]

If you think those verses that I posted do not show free will then prove it with those verses.

Silver, you keep surfing around the issue. The burden of proof is on you. None of those verses you cited address whether or not man is able to respond positively to the command to repent. You are assuming that man has a free will just because they are told to choose. I know that you’re a bit preoccupied trying to save the galaxy from Doctor Doom, but if you could, please point me to one verse that explicitly says that the unregenerate man can do what is spiritually good. I gave you one verse that says he can’t.

 

[Christforums]

No, Charlie.
Salvation is not a market deal where we "do our part" and God does the rest.

Synergism vs. Monergism.

 

[Christforums]

Silver, you keep surfing around the issue. The burden of proof is on you. None of those verses you cited address whether or not man is able to respond positively to the command to repent. You are assuming that man has a free will just because they are told to choose. I know that you’re a bit preoccupied trying to save the galaxy from Doctor Doom, but if you could, please point me to one verse that explicitly says that the unregenerate man can do what is spiritually good. I gave you one verse that says he can’t.

Do you ever sometimes want to say not even G-d can save that man? Come on be honest! Or is there a different issue. Does somebody claim to be saved and reject Soli Deo Gloria? If so, have you ever wanted to say G-d could not save that man only that man could save himself! Come on be honest! Nobody could compete w/ their arrogance, well, maybe the RCC.

 

[Charlie24]

Synergism vs. Monergism.

Isaiah 1:18-20

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

 

[Silverhair]

Silver, you keep surfing around the issue. The burden of proof is on you. None of those verses you cited address whether or not man is able to respond positively to the command to repent. You are assuming that man has a free will just because they are told to choose. I know that you’re a bit preoccupied trying to save the galaxy from Doctor Doom, but if you could, please point me to one verse that explicitly says that the unregenerate man can do what is spiritually good. I gave you one verse that says he can’t.

It seem you have a problem understanding English by boy.

I have given you proof but you just do not like it. If you are so sure those verses do not do what I say they do then prove it by those verses.

Look at what you just posted "You are assuming that man has a free will just because they are told to choose." The fact they are told to choose shows they have the ability to choose. But that bit of logic is beyond you it seems.

But as is usual with those that know they have no argument you deflect. I would say to talk a good game but you can't even do that.

Even the verse you provided does not help your case.
God has provided many ways for man to know about Him whether creation, the gospel message or the conviction of the Holy Spirit. So while the natural man can not know the mind of God he can know the truths of God regarding salvation.
In case your not sure how the bible presents the means of salvation it's hear the gospel believe the gospel be saved by the grace of God through faith in Him.

When you actually have some proof for your false claim then present it as you have not done anything to support your case up to this point.

 

[Silverhair]

Isaiah 1:18-20

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

I wonder if @TheOneWhoLives will say that does not prove free will.

As I've said before, I can only show them the truth I can't make them accept it.

If they will not believe clear biblical text then I am not sure what they would believe.

 

[Christforums]

Isaiah 1:18-20

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

By reason alone, men do not come back from the dead. Many times throughout the OT men reasoned among themselves and the L-rd pitied them. The light of man or their church is not the Logos.

You are now ignored, Pelagian, apostate RCC. Go back to the 1st grade of New converts. Leave theology to others.

 

[Silverhair]

@Christforums you seem to be confused.

Spiritually dead is not actually dead.

God has given man the ability to hear and understand the gospel message or we have to wonder why He said to preach it in the first place.

Having read a number of your posts I find you are a bit judgemental.

You should take heed to what the bible says
Mat 7:1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
Mat 7:2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

But unfortunately I do not think you will do that.

 

[Charlie24]

By reason alone, men do not come back from the dead. Many times throughout the OT men reasoned among themselves and the L-rd pitied them. The light of man or their church is not the Logos.

You are now ignored, Pelagian, apostate RCC. Go back to the 1st grade of New converts. Leave theology to others.

Ok, my friend, that's fine with me!

 

[atpollard]

Isaiah 1:18-20

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

Remind me again, which did the ENTIRE NATION CHOOSE? [... just before they were dragged off into Babylon.]

Matthew 23:37 [ESV] "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

 

[Charlie24]

Remind me again, which did the ENTIRE NATION CHOOSE? [... just before they were dragged off into Babylon.]

Matthew 23:37 [ESV] "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

My point with that Scripture is that God gives man free will to choose. He's not an indifferent God that chooses for man and leaves him out of decision making. God works with man.

 

[atpollard]

My point with that Scripture is that God gives man free will to choose. He's not an indifferent God that chooses for man and leaves him out of decision making. God works with man.

My point is that MEN always make the same choice as Adam ... so God must take stronger action to save some [John 6:44, John 10:29, Ephesians 2:5]: the Father DRAWS, GIVES and MAKES ALIVE.

God DESIRES to do things the easy way, but people always INSIST on the hard way.

 

[Charlie24]

My point is that MEN always make the same choice as Adam ... so God must take stronger action to save some [John 6:44, John 10:29, Ephesians 2:5]: the Father DRAWS, GIVES and MAKES ALIVE.

God DESIRES to do things the easy way, but people always INSIST on the hard way.

Adam chose to believe Satan over God through the lure of sin. It's still happening today. Not all choose as Adam did.

Some when they hear the Gospel and are convicted of sin, see who they really are, a sinner in need of a Saviour.

As you can see from the Scripture I posted, "if you are willing" says the Lord.

 

[TheOneWhoLives]

It seem you have a problem understanding English by boy.

Did you mean “my boy”?

I suppose that I would have a problem understanding English when words are misspelled.

The fact they are told to choose shows they have the ability to choose.

That is your assumption while you reject other clear verses that tell us that man is dead in sin.

When you actually have some proof for your false claim then present it as you have not done anything to support your case up to this point.

I think you need to take a rest from the silver board and let Flash Gordon take up the mantle for little while. You really should read “The Freedom of the Will” by Jonathan Edward’s so that you can think about how this all fits together.

 

[atpollard]

As you can see from the Scripture I posted, "if you are willing" says the Lord.

As you can see from the Babylonian Exile and the scripture I posted NOBODY was willing, so Christ had to come in person and the Father had to DRAW and GIVE people to the son to get them to "be willing".

John 3:19-21 [ESV]
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, [WITHOUT GOD = "not willing"] lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." [WITH GOD = "willing"]

 

[Charlie24]

As you can see from the Babylonian Exile and the scripture I posted NOBODY was willing, so Christ had to come in person and the Father had to DRAW and GIVE people to the son to get them to "be willing".

John 3:19-21 [ESV]
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, [WITHOUT GOD = "not willing"] lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." [WITH GOD = "willing"]

Yes, they would not believe God and He allowed them their will to disobey that led to captivity.

They sent themselves into captivity after God had warned them over and over through the prophets.

How does God draw? Does He say I'll take you and that one over there, but I don't want this one?

Of course not! God comes to us with His Gospel and the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and we are given a choice.

It's the Holy Spirit that breaks through the total depravity with truth and conviction from God's Word.

 

[atpollard]

Of course not! God comes to us with His Gospel and the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and we are given a choice.

It's the Holy Spirit that breaks through the total depravity with truth and conviction from God's Word.

"Choice" is too weak a term to describe Divine Empowerment:

Ezekiel 11:19-20 [ESV]
And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 36:22-32 [ESV]
"Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

Matthew 16:17 [ESV]
And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

Acts 16:14 [ESV]
One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Romans 8:29-30 [ESV]
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 2:1-10 [ESV]
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Charlie24]

"Choice" is too weak a term to describe Divine Empowerment:

Ezekiel 11:19-20 [ESV]
And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 36:22-32 [ESV]
"Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

Matthew 16:17 [ESV]
And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

Acts 16:14 [ESV]
One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Romans 8:29-30 [ESV]
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 2:1-10 [ESV]
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Usually, well actually always, when I post Scripture I expound on what it means.

That opens the floor for constructive conversation.

 

[Silverhair]

That is your assumption while you reject other clear verses that tell us that man is dead in sin.

I know man is dead in sin in other words lost. But what you still do not grasp is that man has a free will. Verses that you have quoted and even comments you have made point to man's free will.

I think you need to take a rest from the silver board and let Flash Gordon take up the mantle for little while. You really should read “The Freedom of the Will” by Jonathan Edward’s so that you can think about how this all fits together.

Edward's was just following the calvinist view which I do not see as biblical. Anyone that thinks man does not have a free will is just not thinking.

Yes I am sure you would like all of us that oppose your calvinist views to just leave the board so you can all live in your echo chamber of calvinist back slapping.

“It would be self-contradictory, that Almighty God should create a free agent capable of loving Him, without also being capable of rejecting His love.... Without free-will we could not freely love God. Freedom is a condition of love.” Edward B. Pusey, What Is Of Faith As To Everlasting Punishment?

 

[atpollard]

Usually, well actually always, when I post Scripture I expound on what it means.

That opens the floor for constructive conversation.

It seemed self-evident, but OK:

"Choice" is too weak a term to describe Divine Empowerment:

Ezekiel 11:19-20 [ESV]
And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

EXPOSITION: GOD GAVE the people "one heart" and a "new spirit". That goes beyond a simple neutral "take it or leave it" offer from God for the people to choose to embrace or reject. GOD (not the people) "removed the heart of stone" from the people. This does not describe people making a choice, but God performing an action. God "gave them a heart of flesh", which is once again not a "choice" of people but is described as an action of God. Ezekiel 11 supports my claim that "choice" is too weak a term when scripture illustrates "divine empowerment" to obedience.


Ezekiel 36:22-32 [ESV]
"Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

EXPOSITION: This is not a description of what people choose to do. This is an emphatic decree of what God chooses to do TO the people. First it reiterates the replacement of a heart of stone (bad) with a heart of flesh (good) as something God does TO PEOPLE rather than something that people choose. Then these verses make it 100% clear that God is doing this TO the people for GOD and not for THEM. "I am about to act" indicates that this is a unilateral action by God whose purpose is to "vindicate the holiness of my great name". This BY GOD and FOR GOD. Look at all the things that God claims God will do: "I will" take, gather, sprinkle, give, remove, put, cause, deliver, summon, and make. At the end God reiterates "it is not for your sake that I will act". This does not illustrate people making a CHOICE. This illustrates GOD choosing to enact Divine Empowerment upon an undeserving people for reasons having nothing to do with them.


Matthew 16:17 [ESV]
And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

EXPOSITION: God the Father revealed TRUTH to Peter. Knowledge of Jesus as "the Christ, Son of the Living God" was not a human choice for the Apostle, but a Divine Empowerment. What makes us think we are so much better that the Apostle needed Divine Empowerment but we are self-empowered to just choose without TRUTH being revealed by God?


Acts 16:14 [ESV]
One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

EXPOSITION: Apparently, like Peter, God felt the need to also "prime Lydia's pump" by "[opening] her heart]" rather than just trusting her to freely choose. This again is less "choose" and more "divine empower".


Romans 8:29-30 [ESV]
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

EXPOSITION: Note carefully how many times the word "he" appears. He is "God". God foreknew and God predestined and God called and God justified and God glorified. This is a symphony of DIVINE EMPOWERMENT rather than a string of Human Choice.


Ephesians 2:1-10 [ESV]
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

EXPOSITION: "even when we were dead", God "made us alive". Setting aside foolish arguments about literal, spiritual or some sort of symbolic/metaphorical "dead" (I don't care), the point I want to make is that this is describing GOD as the active force and people as the passive recipient of whatever God is doing. That is DIVINE EMPOWERMENT rather than Human Choice. When you get down to the nitty-gritty, it makes very clear that it cannot be our choice when "this is not of your own doing" and makes it equally clear that this is DIVINE EMPOWERMENT when it says "it is the gift of God". In case there was any doubt, it echoes back to "this is all about GOD" of Ezekiel 36 with the reminder that "we are his workmanship".

Everything affirms "Divine Empowerment" over any simple "human choice".​

God did it, not us.