Who did Christ die for?

Let's look at this example another way.

What if, instead of a strange man walking in the rain, it was your child?

 

Thank you, menageriekeeper. I would like to add a little more to Amy:

Atonement is NOT forgiveness. If it were, then Christians would not have to confess their sins to the Father and find He is faithful and just to forgive! It would already be an accomplished fact, but it is not.

Here is some from 1 John:

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense -- Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

Now back up to the verses before this:

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:8-9

So you see, atonement is finished, an accomplished fact. But it is not forgiveness. That for each of us who are His is an ongoing thing and connected to our confession and repentance. Because, when we were born again in the Spirit, we were given hearts that do not want to sin in place of our old hearts which always tended toward sin, confession and repentance become easier and easier with time. But they are always necessary as long as we live in these earthly bodies and sin.

I hope that helps a little on that one.

Jesus said that a man dies in his sins if the man does not admit to Jesus being God Himself. So that part is entirely dependent upon the man. Jesus simply made is possible for every man to be saved by His atoning sacrifice which, again, satisfied God's justice. But forgiveness is a matter of God's mercy -- again something different.

Then you asked if general revelation is salvation. Menageriekeeper answered you on that one. The short answer is 'no'. The longer answer is from Paul in Romans 1-7. The medium answer is that it depends on what a man does with general revelation -- is he going to go for the truth or does he prefer the lie?

The reason I gave you this link -- http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/index.html -- is because it answers your question about people from all time and places knowing something about the Promise of the Redeemer to come. Four of us contributed to this article (I was Helen Fryman before I married Barry Setterfield). I was quite skeptical about this subject myself until I started studying it and seeing the actual evidence/data. David himself said the message was in the heavens -- there for every language and nation. Was he wrong?

 

An adult child still has the right of refusal. And, biblically, all the little kids are already His.

 

Good to see two sisters in the Lord debating in a civil manner on tough issues. :thumbs:

 

What if it was my child?

As Helen has said an adult child must chose for themselves.

I have 3 and I praise the Lord that they were all saved and baptized at an early age. But I knew for sure that if they refused the offer and God considered them of a maturity level to be able to make the choice that if they died still refusing Him that I would lose them forever. Kind of puts some motivation into teaching your children about God, doesn't it?

Why thank you TC, but I think there may be four of us who are women.

 

Helen:

You can go and post your magnificent and scholarly replies to the thread that this unlettered, undiplomaed, ignorant pretender to wisdom and God's spirit started.

Maybe you can educate me.

Like I said: what do I know, eh ? can't even tie my shoelaces. my belly's blocking the view.

 

Thanks for letting me know, for Helen and Amy are obvious by their names. :laugh:

 

Unless they are biblical, they mean nothing. You know that and I know that. However your attitude is one which I truly have learned to associate with those who hold the Reformed position. "Don't bother me with the facts; my mind's made up."

It is the Bible which is to educate us. I brought up what the Bible said. If that was 'magnificent and scholarly', I would agree -- that is the way the Bible is in many areas.

 

Guys/Gals,

Here's something that comes to mind (I'm thinking out loud now so don't don't expect too much) -- we usually think of sin that is forgiven us as sins of COmmission, right?

Isn't unbelief a sin of Ommission?

Do you think this makes a difference?

skypair

 

The facts ?

What facts ?

You haven't brought up any facts, ma'am. You have suggested what the popular thinking is: that the Bible was written for the benefits of all mankind.

We are speaking of the Bible. Printed word. KJV, NSB, NKJV, Latin Vulgate, Tyndale, Torah, whatever.
Bible means a compilation of books.

Tell me how the Bible benefited all mankind before the printed word, please ?

Tell me how the Bible was written for the benefit of those who lived after the flood in other parts of the world which do not belong to the Biblical lands, please ?

Educate me.

Please don't point to the sun, the moon, the stars, the trees, the evil and goodness of men, the entire creation.

Speak of the Bible and of your facts of how God had it written to benefit all mankind, elect or not, chooser or not, chosen or not.

On the other hand, I have quoted two very clear Scriptures written by the Apostle that factually says whatsover were written aforetime were written for our learning. And I don't think he was speaking of him and all mankind there.

 

Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Are you guys saying that people who have never heard the gospel preached know about Jesus through general revelation?

 

That's what Romans 1 says.

 

Amy, I would suggest studying the OT sacrificial atonement. There are many in the OT that had the sacrificial atonement made on their behalf that will not be in Heaven.

 

hmmm. I will have to study that.

 

Amy, the facts I was referring to were Bible verses. I consider the Bible to be a book of facts.

And I assume you have not read the article, so please don't criticize what you don't know about. My husband is an astronomer/physicist and the director of the New Hope Observatory -- probably the only observatory of that quality anywhere in the world which is Christian and on Christian grounds. He definitely knows what he is talking about.

 

In more direct answer, no. It needs to be taught. But it has been known in one form or another by all peoples and cultures through time. Read the stories the missionaries bring back. That is one of the things that started to convince me. Bruchko, for example, is a book by a man who lived with the Motilone Indians in Colombia for years. He may still be there, I don't know. For years nothing he said seemed to make any difference until one day he heard part of their own tribal culture's religion in a story that was being told. That was it! They had the key already and all he had ever needed to do was learn enough to know where it was and tell them, God did that through Jesus.

Similar stories come back from all over the world. God has not left anyone without enough truth to be able to turn to Him at one time or another in their lives and thus be drawn to Christ, the Promise of God before the Cross, the Anointed One and the Known One after the Cross, but always the Same One, the Savior and Redeemer of men.

God truly has so loved the world.

 

Let me know what you learn.

One group that comes to mind is the Pharisees. They had every "work" covered, including sacrificial atonements made on their behalf, and Jesus made it clear that they were not His.

 

Helen, I wasn't criticizing you. I'm sorry you took it that way.

 

Do Not Amend God's Word !

Helen , so I am espousing non-biblical doctrines , am I ?

Revelation 3:5 says that He will never erase names from the Book of Life . Sorry to hear you deny this biblical fact .

If Christ atoned for the sins of every individual-- past , present and future -- then Heaven is the destiny of all . Sorry Helen -- that's too silly .

How can He be said to die for each and every person when some are reserved for condemnation ?! Look up Jude 4,13 ; 2 Peter 2:3,12 ,17; Romans 9:22 ; Phil 3:19 and Proverbs 3:19 . It is plainly laid out in Scripture that He did not die for reprobates . He did not die for those He did not come to save .

When Christ said that He never knew them -- of course it means that He never had a close , intimate relationship with them ( foreknowledge is applied to those He set His love upon -- that intimate knowledge ) . I never implied anything otherwise . I never said , nor can it be inferred that I meant that the Lord was not aware of those He doesn't KNOW in the biblical sense of the word. That's absurd .

Helen : If He paid for everyone's sins= He atoned for everyone's sins= He has pardoned their guilt = He has forgiven them of their iniquities = He is reconciled to everyone = everyone is a co-heir with Christ = everyone has Christ as their Advocate and Intercessor = no one is under His eternal wrath = no one is going to perdition = all are saved .

Sorry Helen -- that just will not fly biblically -- it's landbound . It's an ostrich -- not an eagle .Try again .

Sorry Helen : Acts 20:28 says that He bought the Church with His own blood . He did not purchase the Church and the non-church with His blood .

In Ephesians 5:2 it says that Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for "us" . Who is being referenced as "us" ? Well , verse 25 will enlighten you . The Church which Christ has loved and for which He gave Himself up for -- those folks are the "us" . He did not die for the Church and non-church alike . The Lord excludes some from the Kingdom -- He chooses not to reveal Himself to many . Do not attempt to amend God's Holy Word Helen .

Yes , it is biblical to believe that only those souls predestined to be saved are the ones who labor and are heavy-laden . They are well-aware of their state and status before the Lord . Those burdened with a sense of sin and desiring relief from the overwhelming seriousness of their condition are the very ones that Christ has planted belief in . The Father savingly draws them to His Son . They are His . He gives them rest -- no one else . He did not grant a restful respite to all -- only to the elect did He choose to give a rest of their souls . He brings them to Himself . To believe otherwise is not biblical Helen .

 

MK, I've already stated that I believe Christ's death was sufficient for all. We agree on this. But we disagree on the intent of His death.
He did not die with the intention of saving those who were already in hell at the time of his death.

Agree or disagree?