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Who did Christ die for?

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Isaiah40:28

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webdog said:
I think it's been asked before...but in the OT, was all Israel's sins atoned for or not? Atonement is legal payment. Were all the Israelites, using your logic, saved?
I don't think the OT sacrifices provided true atonement.
Romans 3: 25 seems to address this issue.
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
My Bible has a footnote as well, offering an expanded translation of the verse at the word "atonement". It reads "as the one who would turn aside his wrath, taking away sin".
God gave instructions to the nation of how His judgement could be appeased, but I see it as a temporary appeasement. The sins of the OT saints were paid for by Christ, not the blood of sheep and goats as Hebrews 10 teaches.
I'm posting the first 18 verses which I think explain well why the atonement for Israel was not a true lasting atonement.
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.' " 8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 "This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds." 17 Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more." 18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
 

webdog

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npetreley said:
Okay, let's see if you can take it as well as dish it out.

Nobody believes in free-willism except through the influence of free-willers like Finney, Pelagius. And since this false teaching that is what itching ears want to hear has infected today's church as was clearly prophesied, people get it from their local church every week. Nobody could possibly get free-willism from the Bible, since it is not taught in the Bible. Anyone who says they got it from scripture is self-deceived, knowingly or unknowingly. That includes you, webdog. Either you believe a lie and don't know it, or you're just plain lying, because we all know you didn't get your ideas from scripture.
You need an influence like Finney, et al, to understand "choose you this day who you will serve...", "whole world", and "everyone"? I know your camp does...mine doesn't.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Is it me, or was there panic in the room?

I have seen this more then just once. Remember Blammo? I think that was his name. He would start to lean one way, and all those on the other side would get mad at him.

It seems like some would never let such thinking that they could be wrong find place in their little mind. No one should run from the truth. It is what it is.


Calvinist need to make sure they never act in this way.
 

webdog

Active Member
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Jarthur001 said:
Is it me, or was there panic in the room?

I have seen this more then just once. Remember Blammo? I think that was his name. He would start to lean one way, and all those on the other side would get mad at him.

It seems like some would never let such thinking that they could be wrong find place in their little mind. No one should run from the truth. It is what it is.


Calvinist need to make sure they never act in this way.
I see just the opposite, James. I see one person leaning your way...and then being showered with praise for learning the "truth" and "Scripture". I guess it's in the eye of the beholder, eh?
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
webdog said:
I see just the opposite, James. I see one person leaning your way...and then being showered with praise for learning the "truth" and "Scripture". I guess it's in the eye of the beholder, eh?
I and others have seen this for weeks and said nothing.

I have been away all day....that was my take on things as I read it. I have been wrong before, so its no big deal if I'm wrong again. That is just how I saw things.

Anyway...back to the thread
 

Amy.G

New Member
Guys, guys! As flattering as this is, please stop fighting over me! :laugh: :laugh:

We shouldn't be afraid to explore all the truths in God's word. That's what I'm doing.
 

webdog

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I fight for truth, Amy (now I sound like a super hero :laugh:)

I was in the EXACT same boat as you 4 - 5 years ago. One of the things I did was speak to long time calvinists who no longer believed that way (I believe Alex falls in that camp) and why they didn't. I found it quite interesting the personality traits I discovered that I shared with cal's and those who became non cal's.

The main thing was prayer. I kept an open mind and kept asking the Holy Spirit to utterly reject what's not truth.
 

Amy.G

New Member
webdog said:
I fight for truth, Amy (now I sound like a super hero :laugh:)

I was in the EXACT same boat as you 4 - 5 years ago. One of the things I did was speak to long time calvinists who no longer believed that way (I believe Alex falls in that camp) and why they didn't. I found it quite interesting the personality traits I discovered that I shared with cal's and those who became non cal's.

The main thing was prayer. I kept an open mind and kept asking the Holy Spirit to utterly reject what's not truth.
And that's what I'm doing too. I promise. In fact my prayer is identical to yours. :)
 

BrotherJames

New Member
Lu:16:28: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Lu:16:29: Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Lu:16:30: And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Lu:16:31: And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Why didn't Abraham say anything about grace, or if the Lord will able them? Why did he say LET THEM HEAR THE PROPHETS?
 

menageriekeeper

Active Member
A couple of comments on some things that caught my eye on the last couple of pages:

webdog said:
As I asked npet...both sides cannot be right.


No but both sides can be wrong and I think we should keep that in mind as we discuss these issues.


Isaiah 40:28 said:
Does the teaching of the Holy Spirit count as an "outside " influence?
Cause I'm sure all the Calvinists here will acknowledge His work as an influence, much to the chagrin of others I'm sure.

I’m not in the least chagrined, though you may think I should be. I personally believe the Holy Spirit brings us to the knowledge that we personally need ourselves at the particular time we need to know them. On top of that, I don’t believe the Holy Spirit would guide us to believe something different from what is written in the scriptures. (you know, like “whosoever will”)


And last but not least, Amy. We are all influenced every single day by: the way were raised to believe, by what we read, by our conversations with others and hopefully by the Holy Spirit. It is not the truth to say that nothing influences us. Simply reading the BB is going to have some impact on what you think and cause you to question why you believe what you believe. This is not a bad thing. My belief is that one must question in order to learn and mature as a Christian ("study to show thyself approved"). Pray, read, pray, read, read while praying, pray while reading and don't expect to much too soon. You will find answers to your questions. :)
 

Amy.G

New Member
menageriekeeper said:
A couple of comments on some things that caught my eye on the last couple of pages:




No but both sides can be wrong and I think we should keep that in mind as we discuss these issues.




I’m not in the least chagrined, though you may think I should be. I personally believe the Holy Spirit brings us to the knowledge that we personally need ourselves at the particular time we need to know them. On top of that, I don’t believe the Holy Spirit would guide us to believe something different from what is written in the scriptures. (you know, like “whosoever will”)


And last but not least, Amy. We are all influenced every single day by: the way were raised to believe, by what we read, by our conversations with others and hopefully by the Holy Spirit. It is not the truth to say that nothing influences us. Simply reading the BB is going to have some impact on what you think and cause you to question why you believe what you believe. This is not a bad thing. My belief is that one must question in order to learn and mature as a Christian ("study to show thyself approved"). Pray, read, pray, read, read while praying, pray while reading and don't expect to much too soon. You will find answers to your questions. :)
Thanks MK. :)

I hope everyone knows it's not my intention to cause division.
 
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webdog

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No but both sides can be wrong and I think we should keep that in mind as we discuss these issues.
I agree that individual beliefs within each can both be wrong...by how can calvinist vs. non calvinist both be wrong, though? :) They are two absolutes on each side of the spectrum. If both are wrong, nothing is right.
 
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Amy.G

New Member
webdog said:
I agree that individual beliefs within each can both be wrong...by how can calvinist vs. non calvinist both be wrong? :) They are two absolutes on each side of the spectrum. If both are wrong, nothing is right.
None of us, no matter what side we're on can be 100% correct, because God has not revealed all there is to know to us.

I have said for a long time that I see both predestination and free will in the pages of God's word. I can't explain how they both work together because they seem to oppose one another, but they are definitely there and both are true.
 
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