Who has not failed?

[steaver]

Anyone that says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" - has a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

Christ said in Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

In Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

John says "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

(The list of these texts is pretty long - hopefully you get the idea.)

Turns out that open willful rebellion against the Word of God is not one of the fruits of the Spirit listed in Gal 5.


Hope that helps!

:godisgood:

in Christ,

Bob

Indeed I get the idea and it helps a great deal. :thumbs:

I must say I stand corrected in my thoughts. I thought for sure you would not be willing to say that the person in my hypothetical would be going to hell.

This is exactly what I purposed to expose in the SDA teachings. The SDA believes that even though a person has faith in God and has been born of God this faith is void if the person dies in an act of rebellion against God (sin).

This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. By grace ye are saved through faith and this not of yourselves it is the gift of God.

The SDA preaches another gospel. Faith only counts if the person is sinless.

:jesus:

 

[BobRyan]

The ones that are declared to be blind in the following case - and thus covered under the grace - the provision made for them in that case --

Christ said "I have many more things to tell you but you cannot bear them now" John 16.

James says "To him that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to him it is sin". James 4

Christ said "IF you were blind you would not have sin - but you say that you see - so your sin remains" John 9:41

Are not the willfully boldly defiant that would fit this next case -

Anyone that says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" - has a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed I get the idea and it helps a great deal. :thumbs:

I must say I stand corrected in my thoughts. I thought for sure you would not be willing to say that the person in my hypothetical would be going to hell.

This is exactly what I purposed to expose in the SDA teachings. The SDA believes that even though a person has faith in God and has been born of God this faith is void if the person dies in an act of rebellion against God (sin).

This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. By grace ye are saved through faith and this not of yourselves it is the gift of God.

The SDA preaches another gospel. Faith only counts if the person is sinless.

:jesus:

Turns out that Jesus WAS preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ when HE said "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father" - Matt 7

Turns out Paul WAS preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ when he said in Romans 2 "according to my gospel" -- God will judge without partiality such that "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

Turns out John WAS preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ when he said "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

Those who would accuse John and Paul and Christ of preaching "another gospel" as you have done - are simply missing one or two glaring and not-so-subtle details of scripture.

Your "then you must be sinless to be saved" nonsequiter does not work at all in that case.

Hope that helps. Try to avoid going there - and your argument is that much more Biblically accurate- so a win-win.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

The ones that are declared to be blind in the following case - and thus covered under the grace - the provision made for them in that case --


Quote:
Christ said "I have many more things to tell you but you cannot bear them now" John 16.

James says "To him that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to him it is sin". James 4

Christ said "IF you were blind you would not have sin - but you say that you see - so your sin remains" John 9:41



in Christ,

Bob

So you have said many times. This error is unique to SDA theology alone and is a result of not understanding the foundation of salvation as you demonstrated in your answer to my hypothetical.

Steaver;

A little test for you Bob,

A person has been born of God. You read to or show this Christian Lev 11 and this Christian says "yes, I see that God forbid the eating of swine here in Lev 11, but I am going to eat swine anyways because, well, I like it". The next day at breakfast while chewing on some bacon this Christian has a massive heart attack, blacks out, no time for even one thought, and dies. Said he seen with his own eyes that God forbid swine in Lev 11 but refused to repent of eating swine anyways and dies.

In your pov, according to what you have read in the scriptures, would this Christian go on to eternal life with Christ?

John 16:12 would not apply here for the Christian declared that he did see Lev 11 and understood God did say do not eat swine there in the text.

What's your answer?

Bob's answer;

Christ said in Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

In Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

John says "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

(The list of these texts is pretty long - hopefully you get the idea.)

Turns out that open willful rebellion against the Word of God is not one of the fruits of the Spirit listed in Gal 5.

SDA theology has a Christian's sin canceling out their faith in Christ. This is "another gospel". Jesus came to save the sinner. In your SDA model a Christian's sin trumps the Christian's faith.

Turns out that Jesus WAS preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ when HE said "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father" - Matt 7

Turns out Paul WAS preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ when he said in Romans 2 "according to my gospel" -- God will judge without partiality such that "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

Turns out John WAS preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ when he said "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

Those who would accuse John and Paul and Christ of preaching "another gospel" as you have done - are simply missing one or two glaring and not-so-subtle details of scripture.

Red-herrings cannot save your theology. Posting scriptures that you do not understand does not equate to me accusing Jesus or the Apostles of preaching another gospel.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved is the foundation of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Your gospel goes like this; Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and do not sin and thou shall be saved.

SDA doctrine preaches that commandment keeping trumps faith. Without sinlessness faith does not count. This is "another gospel". It does not matter how many scriptures you post in ignorance of this. The true gospel of Jesus Christ is faith triumps over sin. Not the SDA's other way around.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.........

Gal 3:17............And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

SDA doctrine has the Law, if not kept, disannuling the promise by faith.

:jesus:

 

[BobRyan]

The ones that are declared to be blind in the following case - and thus covered under the grace - the provision made for them in that case --

Quote:
Christ said "I have many more things to tell you but you cannot bear them now" John 16.

James says "To him that KNOWS to do right and does it not - to him it is sin". James 4

Christ said "IF you were blind you would not have sin - but you say that you see - so your sin remains" John 9:41

Are not the willfully boldly defiant that would fit this next case -

Quote:
Anyone that says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" - has a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

============================================

So you have said many times. This error is unique to SDA theology alone and is a result of not understanding the foundation of salvation

The objective unbiased reader finds your logic to be "illusive" at that point.

Needs some work.

:godisgood:
in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Steaver -

In answer to your hypothetical (of the form) -- someone says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" -

I gave the answer:

They have a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

As well as the confirming Bible answer

Christ said in Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

In Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

John says "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

(The list of these texts is pretty long - hopefully you get the idea.)

Turns out that open willful rebellion against the Word of God is not one of the fruits of the Spirit listed in Gal 5.

Bible texts which you complained about as not being Christ's Gospel -

So I responded -

Turns out that Jesus WAS preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ when HE said "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father" - Matt 7

Turns out Paul WAS preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ when he said in Romans 2 "according to my gospel" -- God will judge without partiality such that "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

Turns out John WAS preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ when he said "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

Those who would accuse John and Paul and Christ of preaching "another gospel" as you have done - are simply missing one or two glaring and not-so-subtle details of scripture.

Your "then you must be sinless to be saved" nonsequiter does not work at all in that case.

Hope that helps. Try to avoid going there - and your argument is that much more Biblically accurate- so a win-win
===================================


And then innexplicably - you came back with your classic Bible-is-a-red-herring response -

Red-herrings cannot save your theology. Posting scriptures that you do not understand does not equate to me accusing Jesus or the Apostles of preaching another gospel.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved is the foundation of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Again your logic is simply "illusive" as a response to the obvious texts given above.

Your gospel goes like this; Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and do not sin and thou shall be saved.

How does it help for you to 'quote you' to make your case against the list of texts that so clearly refute your positions? I never said "you must be sinless to be saved".

You seem to be at a point where making stuff up as a last resort for defending your views.

Again - I find your logic to be illusive at that point.

Have another run at it.

:jesus:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Steaver -

In answer to your hypothetical (of the form) -- someone says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" -

I gave the answer:

They have a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

As well as the confirming Bible answer

Quote:
Christ said in Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

In Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

John says "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

(The list of these texts is pretty long - hopefully you get the idea.)

Turns out that open willful rebellion against the Word of God is not one of the fruits of the Spirit listed in Gal 5.
in Christ,

Bob

Not just "someone". You have to pay attention to the details of my hypothetical.

A person has been born of God. You read to or show this Christian Lev 11 and this Christian says "yes, I see that God forbid the eating of swine here in Lev 11, but I am going to eat swine anyways because, well, I like it". The next day at breakfast while chewing on some bacon this Christian has a massive heart attack, blacks out, no time for even one thought, and dies. Said he seen with his own eyes that God forbid swine in Lev 11 but refused to repent of eating swine anyways and dies.

Your SDA view is that anyone who says they have faith in Christ and eats swine knowing what Leviticus 11 says about swine is a liar and therefore not saved. This would include myself and probably everyone on this board except for yourself.

:jesus:

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Steaver -

In answer to your hypothetical (of the form) -- someone says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" -

I gave the answer:

They have a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

As well as the confirming Bible answer

Quote:
Christ said in Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

In Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

John says "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

(The list of these texts is pretty long - hopefully you get the idea.)

Turns out that open willful rebellion against the Word of God is not one of the fruits of the Spirit listed in Gal 5.
in Christ,

Not just "someone". You have to pay attention to the details of my hypothetical.

Your SDA view is that anyone who says they have faith in Christ and eats swine knowing what Leviticus 11 says about swine is a liar

If your intent is to quote me - then what I said was ...

In answer to your hypothetical (of the form) -- someone says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" -

I gave the answer:

They have a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

If your complaint is that you believe that people who willingly choose to defy the Word of God (as noted in the statement above) should be "once saved always saved - anyway" - then you are right to point out that I do not believe in the man-made tradition of once-saved always saved.

If your imagined argument is that Adventists are the only Christians on this area of the BB making the Arminian argument for Perseverance instead of the false teaching of OSAS - then you have not been paying much attention at all to the OSAS threads.

Take your pick.

:godisgood:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In answer to your hypothetical (of the form) -- someone says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" -

I gave the answer:

They have a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

As well as the confirming Bible answer

Quote:
Christ said in Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

In Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

John says "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

(The list of these texts is pretty long - hopefully you get the idea.)

Turns out that open willful rebellion against the Word of God is not one of the fruits of the Spirit listed in Gal 5.
in Christ,

Your statement below appears to argue that the "someone" mentioned in that scenario above is you -

This would include myself and probably everyone on this board except for yourself.

:jesus:

Are you sure you are willing to take a flying leap off of that cliff as if you "see what you are doing"??

Christ said this of those who were thinking it was ok to defy the Word of God -

Christ said "IF you were blind you would not have sin - but you say that you see - so your sin remains" John 9:41

I don't know if you are really in the dire situation that you so willingly choose to paint yourself as being in or not.

But I know what God's Word says.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

If your intent is to quote me - then what I said was ...

Originally Posted by Bob
In answer to your hypothetical (of the form) -- someone says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" -

I gave the answer:

They have a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.


in Christ,

Bob

Are you saying that you then changed my hypothetical replacing it with your own and then gave answer to your quote instead of mine?

That is called a red-herring.

Maybe you would like to go back to my original quote and give an answer to it instead of throwing up your own scenario and then giving an answer.

Otherwise I must assume that your answer was given on MY hypothetical not yours. If this is not the case then you need to re-read my question and start a fresh.

Here it is, maybe we can start over...

A person has been born of God. You read to or show this Christian Lev 11 and this Christian says "yes, I see that God forbid the eating of swine here in Lev 11, but I am going to eat swine anyways because, well, I like it". The next day at breakfast while chewing on some bacon this Christian has a massive heart attack, blacks out, no time for even one thought, and dies. Said he seen with his own eyes that God forbid swine in Lev 11 but refused to repent of eating swine anyways and dies.

In your pov, according to what you have read in the scriptures, would this Christian go on to eternal life with Christ?

John 16:12 would not apply here for the Christian declared that he did see Lev 11 and understood God did say do not eat swine there in the text.

What's your answer?

If your complaint is that you believe that people who willingly choose to defy the Word of God (as noted in the statement above) should be "once saved always saved - anyway" - then you are right to point out that I do not believe in the man-made tradition of once-saved always saved.

If your imagined argument is that Adventists are the only Christians on this area of the BB making the Arminian argument for Perseverance instead of the false teaching of OSAS - then you have not been paying much attention at all to the OSAS threads.

Take your pick.

Red-herrings. Stay on point.

:jesus:

 

[BobRyan]

Turns out - the Bible is not "a red herring" when it comes to the subject of rebellion against the Word of God by a born-again Christian - who then loses salvation.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

A little test for you Bob,

A person has been born of God. You read to or show this Christian Lev 11 and this Christian says "yes, I see that God forbid the eating of swine here in Lev 11, but I am going to eat swine anyways because, well, I like it". The next day at breakfast while chewing on some bacon this Christian has a massive heart attack, blacks out, no time for even one thought, and dies. Said he seen with his own eyes that God forbid swine in Lev 11 but refused to repent of eating swine anyways and dies.

In your pov, according to what you have read in the scriptures, would this Christian go on to eternal life with Christ?


:jesus:

And I responded to the core of your question -

Anyone that says "I see that God does not want me to eat diseased flesh and rat sandwiches when I read Leviticus 11 - but I don't care what God says - I like doing what I am doing and God is not going to stop ME" - has a problem right then and there - it does not matter if they "die the next day from eating that diseased flesh" or not.

And then you accepted it and stated that this is the very problem you take issue with - that you feel the person described as being in rebellion against what they know to be the Word of God above - should be OSAS-OK.

Indeed I get the idea and it helps a great deal. :thumbs:

I must say I stand corrected in my thoughts. I thought for sure you would not be willing to say that the person in my hypothetical would be going to hell.

This is exactly what I purposed to expose in the SDA teachings. The SDA believes that even though a person has faith in God and has been born of God this faith is void if the person dies in an act of rebellion against God (sin).

This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So then I took your "that Bible is NOT the Gospel" idea and showed your error -

Turns out that Jesus WAS preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ when HE said "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father" - Matt 7

Turns out Paul WAS preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ when he said in Romans 2 "according to my gospel" -- God will judge without partiality such that "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED".

Turns out John WAS preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ when he said "The one who SAYS that he knows Christ and does not KEEP His commandments is a liar" 1 John 2.

Those who would accuse John and Paul and Christ of preaching "another gospel" as you have done - are simply missing one or two glaring and not-so-subtle details of scripture.

Your "then you must be sinless to be saved" nonsequiter does not work at all in that case.

Hope that helps. Try to avoid going there - and your argument is that much more Biblically accurate- so a win-win.

in Christ,

Bob