Who here thinks babies go to heaven ?

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
People aren't spirits; angels are.

Men are souls, actually. Gen. 2:7.

But that's beside the point. All the infants slaughtered through abortion, where are their bodies? Have they been resurrected yet?

So whether they're in heaven or hell, it's their spirits. </font>[/QUOTE]The OT word for soul is used in many ways in the OT. It also means a life. So in the same way you can say "45 souls were lost at sea" and it means that 45 people lost their lives at sea.

Even without a body, a dead person is not a spirit. They are still a person. A spirit being refers to angels. I think it's confusing to call dead people spirits -- that is what the spiritualists and occultists do, because they do not believe in a resurrected body. Also, many have the mistaken view that when one dies, one becomes an angel.

So I make a point to call dead people dead people, not spirits.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by RightFromWrong:
WHATEVER You ask ridiculous questions. What in the heck does John leaping in his mothers womb have to do with anything ?

Let me give you the answer then: "For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy."

If a baby in his mother's womb can feel joy in the presence of the Savior, and express it, then why can't a baby repent and believe?

 

[RightFromWrong]

Whatever...... you sure have quit a imagination and a way of stretching truths

you forgot and Elizabeth was FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT.

Since when other than that moment in history has that ever happened again ? Don't take a miracle of God and say that fits for everyone for all times. It was one single event in time.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Marcia:
The OT word for soul is used in many ways in the OT. It also means a life. So in the same way you can say "45 souls were lost at sea" and it means that 45 people lost their lives at sea.

Even without a body, a dead person is not a spirit. They are still a person. A spirit being refers to angels. I think it's confusing to call dead people spirits -- that is what the spiritualists and occultists do, because they do not believe in a resurrected body. Also, many have the mistaken view that when one dies, one becomes an angel.

So I make a point to call dead people dead people, not spirits.

Death is the event at which the spirit is separated from the body. Argue semantics all you want, it's beside the point, which is, there are no little baby-shaped entities with infantile mentalities in hell—or heaven for that matter.

 

[RightFromWrong]

OK Marcia you are right, but people were still saved in the OT as they are in the NT. By FAITH in a blood sacrifice.

What does that have to do with anything or how babies get to heaven ?

This was my whole crux on how BABIES get to Heaven or how ANYONE gets to heaven. PERIOD !

Most people do not understand that it ISN'T sin that sends you to HELL. It's your CONDITION that sends you there. One doesn't have to SIN to go to Hell, just the fact that we were born SEPERATED from a Holy God is enough. God told Adam and Eve that they would DIE if they ate of the tree of good and evil. They didn't die PHYSICALLY that day they died SPIRITUALLY
( death means seperation ).

MARK 3:28-29 says " Truly I say to you ALL SINS will be forgiven of man and whatever blasphemies they utter; BUT whoever blasphemes AGAINST the Holy Spirit NEVER has forgiveness, but is guilty of an ETERNAL SIN !

Babies cannot blasphemy against the gospel. I don't know about you but I have never known a baby in the womb or a very young one who understood the human language, so how can he reject something he has never heard ? It is when a child hears the Gospel ( at whatever age that may be, my sons were 4 and 6 when they were saved ) and if he UNDERSTANDS the gospel and rejects it then he is held accountable.

Your CONDITION sends you to Hell not SIN !
Being in a new right relationship with God sends you to Heaven. Not doing good works or living right.

That is why Jesus told Nicodemus you must be BORN AGAIN ! AMEN

 

[One of His sheep]

Wow this thread seems to be jumping

This thread started out with the question "Do babies go to heaven?" It seems to have weaved down a rabbit trail or two.

The answer to the original question: that is a definite YES!

There are many reasons, but if the two scripture references:

1. David saying that he will see his dead son when he himself dies (2 Samuel 12:23).
2. Paul saying that there is an age of accountability before a human being is condemned to eternal death (Romans 14:12)

does not convince the doubter then nothing will.

30 million aborted children will be in heaven.
Children that are murdered by abortion, by those sickos out there, and those killed in accidents will be in heaven, also. So will those who are born mentally challenged, and incapable of ascertaining right from wrong. God is a God of love and mercy.

Didn't Jesus say, suffer not the little children to come unto me?

 

[One of His sheep]

BTW RightFromWrong has some interesting points.

Your CONDITION sends you to Hell not SIN !
Being in a new right relationship with God sends you to Heaven. Not doing good works or living right.

That is why Jesus told Nicodemus you must be BORN AGAIN ! AMEN

Right on, RFW!

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by RightFromWrong:
Whatever...... you sure have quit a imagination and a way of stretching truths

you forgot and Elizabeth was FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT.

Since when other than that moment in history has that ever happened again ? Don't take a miracle of God and say that fits for everyone for all times. It was one single event in time.

Look, I said I would not argue my view, and I won't. It's fine if you or anyone else disagrees. But I do not see anything in the Bible that leads me to believe that babies do not need to be born again in order to go to heaven.

 

[Aaron]

RFW, If sin wasn't our condemnation, then what did Jesus save us from?

 

[RightFromWrong]

Aaron, good question. Glad you asked

God is HOLY, RIGHTEOUS and JUST. Right ?

A HOLY God can not stand in the presense of SIN. Right ?

Jesus came without SIN to BE sin for US. Right ?

When we accept ( by Faith you have been saved Eph 2:8 ) that which Jesus Christ did on the cross, by being sin for us. We receive HIS righteousness and have been JUSTIFIED ( just as if I had never sinned ) before a Holy God. When God NOW looks at me, he doesn't see a SINNER he see's CHRIST RIGHTEOUNESS IN ME. I have been made as WHITE as snow.

Amen ! doesn't that make sense ? If more people could just get this ONE Little truth there would be no debates on losing ones salvation and where do babies go !

You can find verses for every point I have made. Just didn't have time to look them all up.

By the way Aaron Jesus SAVED us from HELL.

 

[RightFromWrong]

SIN DOESN'T SEND MAN TO HELL !

HIS CONDITION DOES !

You can talk all about SIN till the day you die, that has NOTHING to do with your salvation. that isn't what got you ( or lack of it ) SAVED and it isn't what will cause you to keep it.

SIN effects your RELATIONSHIP with GOD and that is ALL.
Being Born Again by FAITH by accepting the Gospel is what GETS you saved !
MARK 3:28-29

 

[RightFromWrong]

JESUS CHANGED OUR CONDITION, not our SIN nature since we all still sin.

Get It ?

 

[kubel]

RFW:

What did the OT sacrifice do?

What did the sacrifice of Christ do?

Hebrews 9 explains.

As for an answer to the original post, your guess is as good as mine. The Bible doesn't say precisely. This is one of those things that man (religion) says happens or doesnt happen.

The Bible does give things that we can parallel to infant death. Example: Israel was not permitted to enter into the promised land because of their wickedness- but God said the children will go because they didn't know good from evil.

Or David when he was fasting and weeping for the child. When the child died, he stopped fasting and he stopped weeping. When people asked him why, he said the child can't come back to him, but he will go to the child.

Again, any doctrine on this issue is purely from man. We'll all know eventually...

[ September 11, 2005, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: kubel ]

 

[RightFromWrong]

the old Sacrifices pointed to the ultimate sacrifice JESUS CHRIST the MESSIAH.

Those who were saved in the OT were saved the same way we are today by FAITH in the Blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

I already explained what Jesus sacrifice did in the post above

What I am saying isn't that hard to understand. Don't try and twist it, it is very simple concept.
If one is having a hard time with this truth maybe they arn't saved ?

 

[kubel]

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

I'm not saying man will stop sinning once he accepts Christ. But his blood does forgive us of our sins.

 

[RightFromWrong]

I said that didn't you read it ?

We are made as WHITE as SNOW through HIS
( Christ ) RIGHTEOUSNESS not our own.

But we still have a sin nature.

Right now if you are saved you have been SPIRITUALLY redeemed,( new right relationship with God, BORN AGAIN ) Your SOUL has been redeemed
( new thoughts, new desires, new will et )

The Mind and Soul still struggle but they have been changed. Our FLESH is the only thing that hasn't changed, till we go to Heaven.

We will struggle with the WORLD, FLESH and SATAN till the day we DIE !

[ September 11, 2005, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: RightFromWrong ]

 

[Aaron]

By the way Aaron Jesus SAVED us from HELL.

Oops!

Matthew 1:21, And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

This one little verse from the first chapter of the first Gospel has undone everything you've said in this thread. It tells who the beneficiaries of God's grace are, His people, His elect, and what He saves them from, their sins.

People go to hell because of their sins. You'll have to find some other premise upon which to base your notion of the universal atonement of all infants and imbeciles.

 

[One of His sheep]

Do children and infants go to heaven when they die?
It all depends if they have a knowledge of right from wrong as in an understanding of the Law of God. We are all born with a sin nature, separated from God spiritually, and with a conscious. In a child these things haven’t developed enough to judge right from wrong according to the Law of God. We receive punishment according to what we have done. (2 Cor. 5:10) breaking the Law of God. We are judged by our deeds (Rev 20:11-12) again breaking the Law of God. But, Paul said that there is an age of accountability before a human being is condemned to eternal death (Romans 14:12)

Ah, ha so herein lies the crux of the matter, what is the age of accountability?

David who had the heart of God said that he will see his dead son when he himself dies (2 Samuel 12:23). Therefore he himself thought that his son was in heaven and that when he died he would see his son. But what does God say on the matter directly? When the disobedient Hebrews refused to cross over into the holy land, a type of heaven, God condemned them all to die, except: “Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it” Deuteronomy 1:39. So here God himself says that there is an age before a person has knowledge of right from wrong. This is the age of accountability.

How old is that? I don’t know it is a matter for each individual child. But, surely babies will go to heaven.

 

[Ashleigh]

The age is probably on how the children are able to learn. Just what I think.

 

[RightFromWrong]

NO Aaron no mistake here. I'm still right

People go to Hell because they have a SINFUL nature that SEPERATES them from a HOLY God. So yes SIN does send them to Hell.
Yes Jesus died for our SINS.

But we do not go to Hell, so much because we sin.
As much as we go to HELL because we have a SIN CONDITION that seperates us from a HOLY God.

Jesus RIGHTEOUSNESS COVERS ALL OUR SINS, but we still sin.

Why is this so hard to understand.