K. A dog has five legs.
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Who Populates the Millennial Kingdom?
- Thread starter Darrell C
- Start date
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Dispensational eschatology stands or falls by Scripture. I believe it is a corruption of GOD's WORD and HIS purpose to redeem the Elect!
Darby dispensationalism is a corruption of GOD's purpose to redeem HIS Elect and make them part of the Bride and aBody of Jesus Christ, the Church!
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
1Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
LOL! Excellent! "If you count the tail as a leg, how many legs does a dog have?"
Four! You can call the tail anything you want to call it but it is still a tail!
Zoooommm! Right over his head! LOL! ROFLOL!Does your mommy know you are on her computer, little fellow?
God bless.
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
Well, my question is, does the dog wag the tail or does the tail wag the dog ?LOL! Excellent! "If you count the tail as a leg, how many legs does a dog have?"
Four! You can call the tail anything you want to call it but it is still a tail!
This is not a thread about Dispensational Theology nor Darby.
Please address the doctrine with Scripture rather than your usual repertoire.
First question for you is the same question asked of you the last time you actually tried to teach your doctrine: how many resurrections are there?
Well, you would be wrong.
That you do not understand the difference between the redemption of ISrael under Law and the Redemption of the Body of Christ is due to the fact you have indoctrinated yourself into a Theology System fraught with error.
I wouldn't know, I have no knowledge of Darby.
If there is something he teaches then you are free to discuss it.
We can start with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Darby believed in that, right? So do I.
Would you like to discuss it? Start with the question above...how many resurrections are there?
This will show the error of your faulty premise.
I like to think of it more in terms of...
2 Timothy 3:16-17
King James Version (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Hmm, so you think me a novice. Should I, like you, fail in answering simple questions? Have you ever known me to fail to answer a question?
The reason I can do so, OR, is because my doctrine does not have the many errors which you simply will not acknowledge.
Now...how many resurrections are taught in Scripture.
Will you finally answer that question?
And I am asking nicely, try to maintain the topic.
God bless.
LOL! Excellent! "If you count the tail as a leg, how many legs does a dog have?"
Four! You can call the tail anything you want to call it but it is still a tail!
Hey Cassidy, since you have no intention of actually addressing the topic, how about explaining again how, what was it, Mesopotamia is the most important culture in History?
Is this what you taught your students?
And I am still waiting to see how you see Scripture lacking several hundreds of generations. Might as well run that rabbit trail.
And the new award system is perfect for a man of your stature, lol.
God bless.
Well, I am glad you are getting something out of this thread.
By the way, I will ask you at this time not to derail the topic with this kind of behavior. I am asking nicely.
God bless.
How about a question relevant to the topic?
Have you read the OP, or just here to join in with the schoolyard bunch?
God bless.
Correct me where I'm wrong.
1. The MK comes immediately after the second coming.
2. Peter says the heavens and earth are dissolved at His coming. 2Peter3:10-11
3. So how could anyone populate the MK?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Perhaps those who get thrown into the "lake of fire" can take the heat?????????????????
Grasshopper, this is how it was explained to me years ago. The word 'dissolved' is not to be confused with 'burned up', but rather, kinda like how a refiner refines gold in a fire and scrapes off the impurities. To me, dissolved is like a 'plop plop' of an alka seltzer in water that dissolves and is no more. The problem with that interpretation is those in the dispensational camp claim to be literalist, but dissolved doesn't mean dissolved?
Being in the amil camp, I see dissolved as being like that alka seltzer in water. The earth is dissolved, burned up, and is no more. Then comes the New Heaven and New Earth, where righteousness resides.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Inappropriate remarks. My apologies!
Hello Grasshopper, welcome to the thread.
The first point of error would be that points 1 and 2 are contradictory. The Millennial Kingdom is thousand year period that does follow the Second Coming of Christ, and if one embraces the Millennial Kingdom then they have embraced the concept of a Kingdom which endures for one thousand years. This is contrasted with the Eternal State seen in Revelation 21, which follows that thousand years.
The second error I would point out (and keep in mind this is being answered from my own view, so the "errors" pointed out are from my own perspective in relation to my own view, contrasted with your view (which has only been presented in limited detail at this point and based on what you have provided here in this post)) is interpreting Revelation 20 with Peter's statement. So let's look at the chapter:
2 Peter 3
King James Version (KJV)
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
Peter begins by referring to the scoffers, those who question the validity of the Return of Christ. We have one member that denies that Christ will "set foot on terra firma," and while this is not the particular degree of scoffing Peter is referring to, we can see that it denies what Prophecy teaches. It gives us an example of the errors a Christian can fall into when Systematic Theology replaces the bible itself. And certain system use Peter's statement as a defense of their view that there will be no Millennial Kingdom, because these are not Prophecies which can be taklen literally, but are just figurative and symbolic, so cannot be placed in a Prophetic Timeline.
Let's look at Peter's Prophecy and how that pertains to Christ's Second Coming.
First note that in view is the Judgment of God, and Peter uses a past event of judgment as the example:
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
Christ Himself uses the example of the judgment of the Flood in Luke 17, and here in view is the sudden nature of judgment which comes on those who scoff at the preaching of the righteous (Noah being the righteous in view). They are ignorant of the truth that God destroyed the world with the exception of the righteous.
That is what is going to take place at Christ's Return, as taught by Christ in many places, prominently spoken of in Matthew 25.
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
His point is that when Christ returns, there will be judgment. He is speaking of this current Age, but, he also speaks in a cumulative sense. And that is the issue that separates the differing views. His next statement...
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
...does not negate the teaching of Prophecy in other passages, so we have to understand what Peter means. And he is simply saying "Judgment is coming on the earth," and "Time is irrelevant to God." He does not nullify the teaching in Revelation of the thousand year period in which Tribulation Martyrs are reigning with Christ (being the only group resurrected at that time).
This is not a formula by which we interpret the use of "thousand years" in Scripture.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
His point here is that it is because of God's patience that He has not destroyed the world in judgment yet.
Now, let's go on, where we will see Peter speak of the Lord's return. Again, this is the primary issue in view:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Now, does Peter say that the elements will melt with fervent heat when Christ returns? If so, then he has been contradicted by John (and ultimately Christ, as He it is that gave John the Revelation of Jesus Christ) in Revelation, because that is not what happens. Christ returns, destroys all physical unbelievers, raised the Tribulation Martyrs, and establishes the Millennial Kingdom.
But that is not what Peter is doing, and we know that because Scripture does not contradict nor cancel out itself. What we see here is Peter referring to end-time events in a manner which is a common patter in Prophecy. That is...it often has reference to more than one event. The best example is Prophecy concerning the Coming of Messiah Himself. Was that Prophecy fulfilled? Yes. Does it still need to be fulfilled? Yes.
Example:
Prophecy of Christ's Coming fulfilled:
Isaiah 9:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Prophecy of Christ's Coming unfulfilled:
Zechariah 14:1-4
King James Version (KJV)
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Reiteration of the Prophecy in Revelation:
Revelation 19:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Continued...
Now lets see that in regards to Peter's statement, but first let's see prophecy which directly speaks of this current universe passing away:
Prophecy of the new heavens and the earth in the Old Testament:
Isaiah 65:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Prophecy in the New Testament:
2 Peter 3:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
(and this shows God's promise is not yet fulfilled)
The fulfillment of that Prophecy reiterated in Revelation:
Revelation 21
King James Version (KJV)
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And the primary issue is...does Peter negate the thousand years prophesied in Revelation?
Lets look at Peter's statement again:
2 Peter 3:10-13
King James Version (KJV)
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Peter's perspective is taking into account the Prophecy in it's cumulative result. We know from other prophecies that the Lord established the Millennial Kingdom when He returns, so we cannot make Peter's statement here nullify that prophecy.
We see this same thing being done by Peter here:
Acts 2:16-20
King James Version (KJV)
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
Here, Peter is saying that the Prophecy of Joel is fulfilled.
Was it? Absolutely...just not in it's cumulative and ultimate sense.
Has the Day of the Lord taken place? Yes, it took place on the Day of Pentecost. The problem most have is making one event out of something that has multiple fulfillments.
Who is going to deny that Peter was preaching truth, that the Prophecy of Joel was not fulfilled at that time?
And is there a Day of the Lord to come still? Yes. We know that because Paul teaches it, and Peter teaches it in the very key text we are looking at now.
Here is what Joel states:
Joel 2:10-11
King James Version (KJV)
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Now. let's see Revelation reiterate this:
Revelation 19:11-15
King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
So here we see multiple fulfillment, yet still we are awaiting...fulfillment.
This can be seen in the Prophecy concerning Antichrist as well.
So we have to take this into consideration, and if we find that we have a view, or a belief, that cancels out what is actually taught in Scripture...we need to figure out where we, not the Word of God not Prophecy, but we...are in error.
Those who deny the Millennial Kingdom will be forced to interpret the teachings of Christ according to their interpretation, and in doing this will completely miss a number of teachings of Christ, not being able to put them in their proper context. They ignore the timeline presented in Revelation, which is paralleled in Christ's teaching in Matthew 24-25. They try to present Old Testament Prophecy as completely fulfilled, and not even the New Testament Writers do that.
Christ did not do that.
So it is true that a thousand years is as a day, and a day as a thousand years for the Lord, but that doesn't mean His eternal Being cancels out Prophecy.
We know there is a Day of the Lord in which Christ returns and establishes a thousand year Kingdom, because we have His Word on it.
Okay, Grasshopper, this is not meant to be a definitive treatment of the issue, simply meant to open this point up for discussion.
Thanks for the very relevant question, and hopefully it can be a point of discussion which can be discussed in more detail.
God bless.
Prophecy of the new heavens and the earth in the Old Testament:
Isaiah 65:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Prophecy in the New Testament:
2 Peter 3:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
(and this shows God's promise is not yet fulfilled)
The fulfillment of that Prophecy reiterated in Revelation:
Revelation 21
King James Version (KJV)
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And the primary issue is...does Peter negate the thousand years prophesied in Revelation?
Lets look at Peter's statement again:
2 Peter 3:10-13
King James Version (KJV)
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Peter's perspective is taking into account the Prophecy in it's cumulative result. We know from other prophecies that the Lord established the Millennial Kingdom when He returns, so we cannot make Peter's statement here nullify that prophecy.
We see this same thing being done by Peter here:
Acts 2:16-20
King James Version (KJV)
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
Here, Peter is saying that the Prophecy of Joel is fulfilled.
Was it? Absolutely...just not in it's cumulative and ultimate sense.
Has the Day of the Lord taken place? Yes, it took place on the Day of Pentecost. The problem most have is making one event out of something that has multiple fulfillments.
Who is going to deny that Peter was preaching truth, that the Prophecy of Joel was not fulfilled at that time?
And is there a Day of the Lord to come still? Yes. We know that because Paul teaches it, and Peter teaches it in the very key text we are looking at now.
Here is what Joel states:
Joel 2:10-11
King James Version (KJV)
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Now. let's see Revelation reiterate this:
Revelation 19:11-15
King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
So here we see multiple fulfillment, yet still we are awaiting...fulfillment.
This can be seen in the Prophecy concerning Antichrist as well.
So we have to take this into consideration, and if we find that we have a view, or a belief, that cancels out what is actually taught in Scripture...we need to figure out where we, not the Word of God not Prophecy, but we...are in error.
Those who deny the Millennial Kingdom will be forced to interpret the teachings of Christ according to their interpretation, and in doing this will completely miss a number of teachings of Christ, not being able to put them in their proper context. They ignore the timeline presented in Revelation, which is paralleled in Christ's teaching in Matthew 24-25. They try to present Old Testament Prophecy as completely fulfilled, and not even the New Testament Writers do that.
Christ did not do that.
So it is true that a thousand years is as a day, and a day as a thousand years for the Lord, but that doesn't mean His eternal Being cancels out Prophecy.
We know there is a Day of the Lord in which Christ returns and establishes a thousand year Kingdom, because we have His Word on it.
Okay, Grasshopper, this is not meant to be a definitive treatment of the issue, simply meant to open this point up for discussion.
Thanks for the very relevant question, and hopefully it can be a point of discussion which can be discussed in more detail.
God bless.
Yes, of course they can.
But you are confusing two different concepts. People are not cast into the Lake of Fire until after the thousand years expire. At that time they are resurrected into bodies suited to the eternal punishment Christ taught so prominently about.
While unbelievers do go into eternal punishment when they are destroyed at Christ's Return...
Matthew 25:41-46
King James Version (KJV)
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
...that does not nullify the Prophecy of Revelation. We see again that the ultimate consequence or fulfillment is in view, and that does indeed begin when men die physically.
We are told plainly that there is a thousand years between the time of the First Resurrection (one of three resurrections listed in Revelation (and speaking only of those resurrections which refer to the two resurrections taught, the resurrection unto life, and the resurrection unto damnation)) and the time that those destroyed are resurrected themselves:
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
So when we understand Prophecy, and that it can have multiple fulfillments, we cannot make the mistake that demands only one resurrection in the Prophecy. We can create a Prophetic Timeline that is consistent with Scripture, and have no need to create fantastic reasons for why the Word of God doesn't mean what it states clearly.
And there are three clear resurrections presented in Revelation.
God bless.
Grasshopper, this is how it was explained to me years ago. The word 'dissolved' is not to be confused with 'burned up', but rather, kinda like how a refiner refines gold in a fire and scrapes off the impurities. To me, dissolved is like a 'plop plop' of an alka seltzer in water that dissolves and is no more. The problem with that interpretation is those in the dispensational camp claim to be literalist, but dissolved doesn't mean dissolved?
I have asked that our discussion focus on what Scripture teaches, rather than what any particular Systematic Theology teaches.
Try presenting the Greek and it's Biblical usage on not just one word in the text, but all of them. I think we can say that the elements will melt with fervent heat, and it is a Biblical Issue, aProphetic Issue, not a Systematic issue.
The topic of discussion is "Who Will Populate the Millennial Kingdom." I have no problem with a denial of the Millennial Kingdom as a side issue to the topic, but please refrain from your opinion without Scriptural support. Please refrain from dragging the usual derailing tactics we see in nearly every thread about the Kingdom and the Rapture those who are A-mil usually present.
We are not here to attack other belief systems, nor to promote any particular belief system, but to simply consider what Scripture, not men...has to say about it.
...you really don't have much to contribute to the discussion.
Not being Rude, SG, just pointing out a truth.
You could address the points which those who embrace the Millennial Kingdom present, and you do that above, but, it is ruined with mention of "the dispensational camp."
Again, please refrain from derailing discussion with introduction of Systematic Disputes. That has never accomplished anything on this forum, other than to divide the Body of Christ.
That is not our goal, SG. It shouldn't be.
This is a Doctrinal Discussion Forum, so let's discuss the Doctrine of the Bible, not the Doctrines of Men.
It is a false argument based on a false premise, and irrelevant to anything anyone has said in this thread (that I am aware of). The post you responded to has nothing to do with the Dispensational Camp, it is simply a question relevant to the Topic.
Now, here is a simple question that to date no A-millennial here has answered: how many resurrections are presented in Revelation?
All disruptive posts from the A-Mil, Preterist, or anything in between, who rejects that there will be the thousand year Reign of Christ as presented in Revelation...will be asked that question. If the usual camp begins an attempt to disrupt this conversation with their typical school yard antics...I will begin reporting those posts as I did in my last visit here.
It's just not that much to ask that discussion stay focused on the topic, and that the discussion centers on what the Bible actually states.
It's not that much to ask for a little common courtesy.
The end result will be different from what is usually accomplished by this disruption, I promise you.
God bless.