Sheep and goats of the burnt offerings, and doves were killed at the altar.
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Who Populates the Millennial Kingdom?
- Thread starter Darrell C
- Start date
Fulfilled, yes, but also changed. IOW, null and void.
Yes. That temple is not made with hands, but is made up of lively stones, the Redeemed, and Christ dwells in that Temple in that kingdom right now.
I approach the apocryphal literature from the basis of the doctrines given by the Apostles. You're approach is backwards. You take your notions of Revelation and take it to the Apostles, and arrive at some truly antichrist notions.
A temporal kingdom is rather inglorious, and that's not the kingdom we look for.
For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2Co 4:17-18
But I'm all ears. Tell me more about this glorious temporal kingdom which I am instructed not to look at for my redemption.
Aaron, can you point to any example of when something was prophetic and became "null and void" before it was fulfilled? Perhaps I missed that part of God's character. I thought there was not even the shadow of God's changing (turning).
Perhaps you missed the last couple chapters of the Bible. There is NO temple in heaven as well as no sun.
Somewhere ,I must admit, I missed that you were Pre-millennial.
That IS the what the apostles taught as ALL of very earliest and FIRST hand accounts state. It was not until the second generation (so to speak) - third generation if one counts the apostles as the first - that other views began to be adopted. That is just not my view or thinking, it is just the facts of history. I have not come across a single written account from those who were either taught directly or the immediate ones taught by Polycarp and others influenced by the direct teaching of John that were not Pre-millennial.
Well good for you.
That is as it should be.
AND, that is as it will be after the millennium for the saints of this last 2000 years of church time.
We are to "lay up treasure in heaven..." most certainly.
But WHICH heaven?
The present heaven has been polluted by the enemy(ies) of the believer. It passes away with the earth in a fiery display.
Therefore, the heaven in which we lay up treasure is the present heaven. It is were the marriage supper takes place, the judgment seat of Christ with the rewards given that the believers have "stored up." Is is from that the believers return in all the glorified stated to this earth to rule with Christ. A place that once drank the blood of the saints is ruled by those very same.
Where in heaven believers to rule WITH Christ if there is nothing over which to rule?
For sure and certain there is a New heaven and earth - and there is no account given in Scriptures describing the saints as rulers in that place.
Of course the believer doesn't look at ANY kingdom for their redemption.
Perhaps you misspoke (as sometimes we all do) to make a point.
The believer doesn't glory but in the Cross - that is the redemptive work of the Cross and the promise of hope that sacrifice brings.
The believer is glorified (change of state) from this earthly flesh-i-ness, or as written many years ago, the soul-ish-ness into His likeness.
I do, actually, as well as those ridden by the Saints.
And, that wasn't your jaw hitting the floor, it was your view going in the trash can.
God bless.
What makes you think it is not literal?
What other do you not take a literal?
Perhaps one could call into question the whole of Scriptures as not literal if they are the determiner of what is real and what is not.
That is what T. Jefferson did. Took a pen knife and cut out portions of the Bible that he thought were not really the truth.
I'm not as smart as that man, who could write in Greek with one hand and at the same time write in Latin with the other, knew six languages fluently, was an architect, statesman, wealthy farmer, musician, ... BUT I would never think of my self the arbitrator of what was the truth, what was literal, what was fantasy story telling in the Scriptures.
So, what makes YOU think that it is not literal?
So the pattern of Christ set forth in the Law in the Levitical Services is now null and void?
The Promise of God that He would restore Israel is now null and void?
Here is a reiteration of Prophecy, Aaron:
Zechariah 14
King James Version (KJV)
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Revelation 19:11-19
King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
And since we know Christ did not return in AD70, we can say without question the Prophecy is not null and void.
You can't spiritualize this away.
Just a reminder but the Church is not said to live on the earth during the Millennial Kingdom:
John 14
King James Version (KJV)
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
No, actually I have found that your approach is one of cherry-picking the Word of God and compiling a Jeffersonian Theology of your making.
You ignore and outright make null and void that which does not fit what you want to believe.
What we have to do is understand and balance all Scripture, and you theology simply does not do that.
You know, I know it, and the Lord knows it.
Only when it comes to the Prophecy in the Hebrew Scriptures.
If you don't get the joke, let me know, that's a good one, actually, even if I do say so myself.
Actually, I can present the timeline of Events and never go outside of Revelation.
But we can see the consistency of Prophecy as it relates to Old Testament Prophecy and the teachings of the New Testament Writers.
Such as?
You better answer this one.
No kidding, lol.
But I am not the one making statements like this...
As I said, your view is due to you failing to actually distinguish between the Millennial Kingdom and Heaven, the physical and the spiritual, the temporal and the Eternal.
That is Job 1 if one wants to understand Scripture.
Not necessary if one simply wants to embrace and endorse a religious system.
All ears? lol
Having ears ye hear not, my friend.
First, in order for you to "not be looking for a temporal kingdom" you would need to establish that I have ever said the Church is looking for a temporal Kingdom. We are not, we are looking for the Rapture and the abode Christ went to prepare for us. This is New Jerusalem, and will not be the final abode until the Eternal State (That is a reference to what happens at the end of the thousand years, by the way, you can read about that in Revelation 21-22).
Secondly, I believe...
Zechariah 14:20-21
King James Version (KJV)
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.
...demands a Temple. Do you know why?
Third, I would ask you to explain why it is that the Temple described in Ezekiel does not refer to a literal Temple in the Kingdom.
And just like in Revelation, as we see the Supper of the Great God followed by the Kingdom, even so in Ezekiel we see the Kingdom described after the destruction of God's enemies.
Be glad to talk with you about that, as it is disturbing when people feel they have liberty to dismiss anything in Scripture.
God bless.
I'll pick one point in the shotgun posts above. Someone said the Apostles were premillennial, but that's begging the question. Not one of them mentioned a millennium outside the apocryphal and highly symbolic book of Revelation.
They spoke of Christ's return, yes. They spoke of a heavenly city, but not one mentioned a temporal 1000 year earthly reign.
Let's focus on this aspect of the argument, one point at a time.
They spoke of Christ's return, yes. They spoke of a heavenly city, but not one mentioned a temporal 1000 year earthly reign.
Let's focus on this aspect of the argument, one point at a time.
I didn't take Aaron literally when he said that.
RoflmaoRolleyesX3I did refer to the blood of animals. This is quite different to the reasoning presented in your post, where it is thought ridiculous that the Lord would ride a horse.
He rode a colt, the foal of a you know what, remember (and I have restrained myself here, great place for a joke, but, going to let it go).
But I would like to know what Scripture shows us that doves, sheep, and goats went into the Temple?
God bless.
Where did someone say the Apostles were premillennial in this thread. I do believe that, seeing that John was an Apostle, and that the Apostles would have all been in agreement, but, where is that mentioned in this thread?
I saw this:
The point you choose is not really a point in the statement, and trying to remove Revelation from the discussion is the very reason why you reject the Millennial Kingdom. This is like saying "I reject New Jerusalem because it's only in Revelation."
We can say without question they were premillennial because they were correct in their doctrine. There is a large expanse of teaching on the Kingdom that was established in the Old Testament, and they would have built off of that. Christ taught of the Kingdom, and while He did not reveal it's length it is without Question that He taught it.
But that is not the focus of the thread, and I would ask you to maintain the focus. The Millennial Kingdom is without question taught in the 19th Chapter of Revelation, and who populates that Kingdom is what is in view.
God bless.
We do see a Temple in Heaven, as well as the Eternal State:
Revelation 7:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 11:19
King James Version (KJV)
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 15:5-7
King James Version (KJV)
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Revelation 21:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
In view here is New Jerusalem, which has come down from Heaven, and seems to be made part of the New heavens and earth. There is therefor no Temple within this city other than The Lord God Almighty and the Lamb, which is still a Temple, lol.
Similarly the reference to the sun is in relation to the new heavens and earth, rather than Heaven.
And that it states that the city has no need of the sun or moon, that is not the same as saying there will be no sun or moon in the new heavens and earth. It is unlikely this is the case in that I would think it's a little hard to have "heavens" without sun nor moon.
God bless.
One of the reasons the Jews rejected Christ is that they thought he was coming to set up a literal Kingdom. They could not conceive of a "suffering Messiah," but only of one that would rule from David's throne on earth. All the OT prophecies point to a kingdom on earth where the earth will be restored to its original beauty and where there will be harmony in nature as is described in Isaiah.
What did Jesus mean, and how did the disciples understand Jesus words, when he taught them:
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
They were to pray for a coming kingdom. What kingdom? What kind of kingdom?
When James and John asked Jesus if one of them could sit on his right hand and the other on his left hand in his kingdom what were they thinking?
Mat 20:20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
Mat 20:21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
--What kingdom was she thinking about? Were they thinking about? Was Christ referring to?
Even when Christ ascended into heaven the disciples were still concerned with Christ setting up an earthly Kingdom. They believed that Christ had come to earth for that purpose.
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
--Jesus did not deny that he would come and set up his kingdom. He simply replied that now was not the time to be concerned with such matters. They needed to be concerned with the Great Commission (verse 8)
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Much is said about the kingdom, both by Christ and his disciples, and by others. It will come, and it will come on earth. He did not say how long it will be. But the book of Revelation does. We have no reason to deny the words of that book.
Six times in the first seven verse of Revelation chapter 20, is the word "thousand" used. In all six times they surely cannot be all allegorical. Six times? NO. Six times they are used in a very literal way. There is a thousand year coming kingdom where Satan is locked up and Christ will reign in perfect peace, as it says. Not hard to believe is it?
This is a great point. To think they were thinking they would be sitting at the Lord's right hand and left in Heaven seems unlikely, seeing they did not understand Who exactly the Lord was at this time. This indicates the disciples' carnal expectation as seen in Acts 1.
Excellent response.
God bless.
This is in the CURRENT heaven which is burned up.
This is in the current heaven which is burned up.
This is in the current heaven which is burned up.
"I saw NO temple..."
Do not assume to put a temple where the Scriptures clearly state there is NO need for such a place - rather the Lord God almighty and the Lamb are completely accessible. There is no more need for the "picture of redemption" that the physical trappings of the building presented.
The place is dramatically different that what the human kind can consider.
There is nothing of this existence that can be compared, and assume it will be like.
There is no sun or moon.
That one cannot picture it in the mind does not warrant that it isn't true.
Post 63
I don't reject the Millennium. I understand it. I take the doctrines of the Apostles to Revelation. I do not take Revelation to them.
Again, begging the question.
Of course. What they taught was eternal, not temporal.
Saying, it is not of this world.
You're basically conceding approaching the epistles with premillennial presuppositions.
The court where the brazen altar stood and upon which were placed the burnt offerings, is part of the Temple. The court, the holy place, and the holy of holies are the three sections of the Temple.
I never said any such thing. No OT promise remains unfulfilled.
Shall we place the Throne of God in the sky, rather than in Heaven?
Revelation 7:9-15
King James Version (KJV)
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Those who serve Him are Saints. Tribulation Martyrs, in fact. This is in Heaven, not one earth, not in the physical universe.
This is established here:
Revelation 4
King James Version (KJV)
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
The Temple of Earth, as well as the Tabernacle, were representative of the Presence of God. Therefore the "Temple" of Heaven is seen as the very Presence of God.
So too in regards to New Jerusalem.
Continued...
The Temple in view is in Heaven:
Revelation 11:16-19
King James Version (KJV)
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 15:5-7
King James Version (KJV)
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
It is not an earthly temple which the Seven Angel come out of, Agedman.
Does not negate that the Temple is seen by us.
That Temple is the very presence of God, contrasted with the shadow of the earthly temple and Tabernacle, which was the representative figure for the place where Man met with God.
No assumption, nor presumption, as the first temple is a reference to an earthly building, the second Temple a reference to the Holiest of All:
Revelation 21:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Continued...