Who really was Jesus Christ?

[evangelist-7]

IMO, John 1:14-18 is chronological.
1:14 … the birth
1:15 … years later, we have John’s testimony
1:16-17 … even later, throughout history
1:18 … after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, the Word, the Son of God, etc.

Re: Phil 2:5-8 and many others …
On earth, when you speak of one, you speak of them all: the Word, Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God, etc.

Matthew 26:64 “Jesus said to him … hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power”

John 1:
14 The Word (the Logos) became flesh and dwelt among us

1 John 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes,
which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—
2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you
that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us

1 John 3:
5 And you know that He (the Word of life) was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
8 For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
Does "the Son of God" simply mean "Jesus" here ???
The Baby was to be called: "Jesus", "the Son of God", and "the Son of the Most High".
The Word (the Logos) who became flesh (Jesus) was manifested to accomplish many things.

1 Timothy 3:
16 God was manifested in the flesh

1 Peter 1:
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

All of the following were manifested: the Word, the Son of God, God, Christ?

I am perfectly okay with these 2 being manifested from heaven: the Word and God.
I am unsure about these 2 being manifested from heaven: the Son of God and Christ.
Note: the NT Jews believed that Messiah was the Son of God (Mt 16:16, Mt 26:63, Mk 14:61, Jn 20:31).
Note: Messiah means Christ (Jn 1:41, Jn 4:25).
Note: Messiah = Christ = Son of God

On earth, when you speak of one, IMO you speak of them all: the Word, Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God, etc.
These names and titles seem to be all mixed up ... but God is not the author of confusion.
But, I guess I am ... No, I'm not claiming to be I AM, the God of Exodus 3:14-15.
.

 

[Moriah]

IMO, John 1:14-18 is chronological.
1:14 … the birth
1:15 … years later, we have John’s testimony
1:16-17 … even later, throughout history
1:18 … after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, the Word, the Son of God, etc.

Re: Phil 2:5-8 and many others …
On earth, when you speak of one, you speak of them all: the Word, Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God, etc.

Matthew 26:64 “Jesus said to him … hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power”

John 1:
14 The Word (the Logos) became flesh and dwelt among us

1 John 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes,
which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—
2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you
that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us

1 John 3:
5 And you know that He (the Word of life) was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
8 For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
Does "the Son of God" simply mean "Jesus" here ???
The Baby was to be called: "Jesus", "the Son of God", and "the Son of the Most High".
The Word (the Logos) who became flesh (Jesus) was manifested to accomplish many things.

1 Timothy 3:
16 God was manifested in the flesh

1 Peter 1:
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

All of the following were manifested: the Word, the Son of God, God, Christ?

I am perfectly okay with these 2 being manifested from heaven: the Word and God.
I am unsure about these 2 being manifested from heaven: the Son of God and Christ.
Note: the NT Jews believed that Messiah was the Son of God (Mt 16:16, Mt 26:63, Mk 14:61, Jn 20:31).
Note: Messiah means Christ (Jn 1:41, Jn 4:25).
Note: Messiah = Christ = Son of God

On earth, when you speak of one, IMO you speak of them all: the Word, Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God, etc.
These names and titles seem to be all mixed up ... but God is not the author of confusion.
But, I guess I am ... No, I'm not claiming to be I AM, the God of Exodus 3:14-15.
.

I want to understand better what you are saying.
Are you speaking about whether or not Jesus, as the human Jesus, existed in heaven before he came to earth?
If that is what you are talking about, then as for my beliefs, I believe that Jesus did exist as Jesus before the creation of the world, though not flesh and blood.
If this is what you mean, then I could give scriptures that cause me to believe this. If it is not what you mean, then could you please explain to me exactly what you all are discussing?

 

[evangelist-7]

I want to understand better what you are saying.
Are you speaking about whether or not Jesus, as the human Jesus, existed in heaven before he came to earth?
If that is what you are talking about, then as for my beliefs, I believe that Jesus did exist as Jesus before the creation of the world, though not flesh and blood.
If this is what you mean, then I could give scriptures that cause me to believe this.
If it is not what you mean, then could you please explain to me exactly what you all are discussing?

I also wish to understood what I am saying. Okay, briefly ...
"the Word (the Logos) BECAME flesh (the Baby Jesus)" John 1:14.
IMO, the Second person of the Godhead (the Word) BECAME a human being.
Christians believe this human being was both God and man.
IMO, the human CALLED "Jesus" could not have existed prior to His birth.
IMO, the Creator was the Word (the Logos), not Jesus per say.

One of my problems is that ...
Gabriel said to CALL the future Baby: “Jesus”, “the Son of God”, “Immanuel”, and “the Son of the Highest”
… but Gabriel did NOT say that the Baby WAS these things.
Why didn't he say to Mary, "The baby who you will miraculously have IS the Son of God"?
.

 

[Moriah]

I also wish to understood what I am saying. Okay, briefly ...
"the Word (the Logos) BECAME flesh (the Baby Jesus)" John 1:14.
IMO, the Second person of the Godhead (the Word) BECAME a human being.
Christians believe this human being was both God and man.
IMO, the human CALLED "Jesus" could not have existed prior to His birth.
IMO, the Creator was the Word (the Logos), not Jesus per say.

Jesus was the first created by God, and then through Jesus all things were created, through him for him and by him.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

[
One of my problems is that ...
Gabriel said to CALL the future Baby: “Jesus”, “the Son of God”, “Immanuel”, and “the Son of the Highest”
… but Gabriel did NOT say that the Baby WAS these things.
Why didn't he say to Mary, "The baby who you will miraculously have IS the Son of God"?
.

When a child comes from you, it is reasonable to say that it is your son or daughter, because it came from you. Even if it were your clone, would you introduce your clone to the world as you, or as your son?
Jesus is God in the flesh. Jesus came as a man. God came as a man. Jesus came from God. Why not say Jesus is the Son of God, since Jesus came from God.
What do you think?

 

[evangelist-7]

Jesus was the first created by God, and then through Jesus all things were created, through him for him and by him.
When a child comes from you, it is reasonable to say that it is your son or daughter, because it came from you.
Even if it were your clone, would you introduce your clone to the world as you, or as your son?
Jesus is God in the flesh. Jesus came as a man. God came as a man. Jesus came from God.
Why not say Jesus is the Son of God, since Jesus came from God.
What do you think?

Jesus is "the firstborn (of many brethren)" means He was the first of all born-again Christians to be born again.
It is extremely cultish to say that Jesus was created.

In the OP, I make it very clear why Jesus is the Son of God, and is to be called the Son of God.
Please read it again.
.

 

[mandym]

Jesus is "the firstborn (of many brethren)" means He was the first of all born-again Christians to be born again.

No it doesn't. This is meant to convey per-imenence not chronology.

 

[evangelist-7]

No it doesn't. This is meant to convey per-imenence not chronology.

Perhaps there are 3 meanings ... here are my notes:

The meaning and use of “firstborn” is a confirmation of Jesus being called “the only-begotten Son of God”.

“He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible (Father) God, the firstborn over all creation.” (Colossians 1:15).
“prototokos” (firstborn) here means Jesus was “the first cause, the source of creation”.
Jesus being the source of creation is verified in the very next verse:
“For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth …” (Colossians 1:16).

Jesus being the source of creation is also verified in this verse:
“These things says the Amen (Jesus Christ), the Faithful and True Witness,
the Beginning of the creation of God …” (Revelation 3:14)
Some Scripture verses say Jesus was the creator of all things, and other verses say
Father God created everything “through” Jesus. Either way, Jesus did the creating.

“firstborn from the (spiritually) dead” (Colossians 1:18, Revelation 1:5)

“For whom He (Father God) foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He (Jesus) might be the firstborn among many brethren.” (Romans 8:29)

Jesus holds the place of honor and pre-eminence among all who have been,
are now, and will be, “born again” spiritually … raised up to inherit eternal life.

"... that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead,
and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.” (Acts 26:23)
.

 

[Moriah]

Jesus is "the firstborn (of many brethren)" means He was the first of all born-again Christians to be born again.

The scripture says Jesus is firstborn over all creation, and then the scripture goes on to speak of the how Jesus is before all things created in heaven and earth, visible and invisible. So you want me to believe that the scripture starts out speaking of Jesus being first born over the brothers, yet then the scripture jumps backwards to before the creation of anything.

16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

It is extremely cultish to say that Jesus was created.

Is it cultish to say God created Jesus is Mary’s womb?

The cults who say Jesus was created, they do NOT believe Jesus is God in the flesh.

 

[evangelist-7]

Is it cultish to say God created Jesus is Mary’s womb?
The cults who say Jesus was created, they do NOT believe Jesus is God in the flesh.

Yes, we must not say Jesus was created, which is not the same as ...
"And the Word (the Logos) became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:1,14).

Jesus "fully man" was created, but Jesus "fully God" was not created.

The cults do not believe any part of Jesus is God.
.

 

[Moriah]

Yes, we must not say Jesus was created, which is not the same as ...

I only said what the scripture says. If you think I misunderstand the scriptures, then you need to be able to explain what the scriptures mean; however, you admit you cannot explain it.

"And the Word (the Logos) became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:1,14).

How do you think that scripture disproves what I said? It does not.

Jesus "fully man" was created, but Jesus "fully God" was not created.

You want to say easily enough that Jesus was created, but you have a hard time saying Jesus was created before the creation of anything. Why is it so hard for you to accept what I said if you believe truly, that Jesus is God?

The cults do not believe any part of Jesus is God.

I know that, so you should not bring them up to me in what I say.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Just read my signature.:thumbsup:

 

[percho]

What does this word mean? υἱός - huios.

If it is used relative to another, what meaning does it then carry relative to the other?

πατήρ patēr-----υἱός - huios

Why would these two words be used to describe, Godhead, if by definition of each word it would be impossible for both to be without beginning and be what called?

Neither can exist without the other can it? You can only be one if you have one.
If you do not have one you can not be the other. You are something else.

I went into a McDonald's years ago and ordered a small coke and was told they did not have but two sizes of drinks. Large and Medium,

Ugh!

Just some thoughts while I'm not thinking about anything else.

 

[The Biblicist]

You asked for scripture that proves that the Son of God prexisted the incarnation. Fred's wife provided that text in John 1:18.

Now, you challenge the text with human logic instead of accepting for what it explicitly states.

The divine nature is omnipresent and thus while his humanity is squarely upon earth speaking to Nicodemus yet he claims that He is at the same time present in heaven:

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

You admit that Jesus Christ is both "God" and "man". Hence, use your logic in keeping with the nature you are addressing. In regard to his humanity, humanity is not by nature omnipresent, omniscient or omnipotent. However, the Divine nature is characterized by all the above.

You are doing the JW twisted logic thing! You are pitting one nature against the other and then using one to deny the other. What you should be doing is categorizing all Divine characteristics with only the divine nature and categarozing all human characteristics with only the human nature and leave the mystery of how both can coexist as a subject of faith, but not blind faith, becuase the scriptures clearly teach it regardless if you can bring it down to your lowly finite logic.

Hence, the Son of God, The Word prexisted in the bosom of the Father prior to the incarnation. The incarnation as God taking upon himself the "likeness" (schema - outward appearance) of humanity as well as the true nature of humanity "form" (morphe) yet without denying the continuance of the unchanging "form" (morphe) nature of God (Philip. 2:6-7).

Isa. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Can you tell us which was born and which was given?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, we must not say Jesus was created, which is not the same as ...
"And the Word (the Logos) became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:1,14).

Jesus "fully man" was created, but Jesus "fully God" was not created.

The cults do not believe any part of Jesus is God.
.

Do you hold that Jesus was/is God incarnate, that in him the fullness of the Godhead was in aphysical/bodily form, that he was/is God the Son and perfect humanity in one Being, both God/man?

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus is "the firstborn (of many brethren)" means He was the first of all born-again Christians to be born again.
It is extremely cultish to say that Jesus was created.

In the OP, I make it very clear why Jesus is the Son of God, and is to be called the Son of God.
Please read it again.
.

jesus is GOD! he NEVER would have to be born again, ashe never sinned, notr even had a sinners nature!

THAT teaching is from heritical word of faith teachers!

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus was the first created by God, and then through Jesus all things were created, through him for him and by him.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.


When a child comes from you, it is reasonable to say that it is your son or daughter, because it came from you. Even if it were your clone, would you introduce your clone to the world as you, or as your son?
Jesus is God in the flesh. Jesus came as a man. God came as a man. Jesus came from God. Why not say Jesus is the Son of God, since Jesus came from God.
What do you think?

Jesus was NOT a created being, as he was the One in beginning with the father as his word, and he became Human flesh, and dwelt among us!

 

[Moriah]

Jesus was NOT a created being, as he was the One in beginning with the father as his word, and he became Human flesh, and dwelt among us!

Jesus was the firstborn over all creation. For by Jesus all things were created, by him and for him.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Through Jesus, all things were made.

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Through Jesus the universe was made.

Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Now, I believe Jesus existed as Jesus before he came to earth. Do you believe that? I believe Jesus is God in a different form. Do you believe that? So then, if God did not create Himself in a different form as Jesus, then you please explain to me how Jesus existed with God before the creation of the world, and how Jesus created the world too. Where then is God? Jesus is God! Again, since you want to correct me, also explain.

 

[evangelist-7]

Isa. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Can you tell us which was born and which was given?

I appreciate your attempt. Yes, the Son surely was given by Father God to the world.

But ...
Was He given as actually being the Word (the Logos) coming to become flesh?
Or ...
Was He given at the time when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary,
causing the Child to have God the Holy Spirit playing the role of His "father",
thus becoming the unique "ONLY-begotten Son of God"?

In Scripture there are 2 obvious "sendings" by Father God:
#1 - He sent the Word (the Logos) to earth to become flesh (Jesus).
#2 - 30 years later, He sent Jesus (the Son of God) into the world with His gospel.

I see much confusion in Scripture between these 2 sendings ...
and I am sure they can only be resolved through spiritual revelation, which is how all spiritual truth comes!
(I don't see my questions as being cultic because I believe Jesus was "fully man and fully God".)

News Flash! I still am unnable to find any Scripture proving the Son of God was eternally in heaven, i.e. prior to Jesus' birth.
.

 

[Moriah]

I appreciate your attempt. Yes, the Son surely was given by Father God to the world.
But ...
Was He given as actually being the Word (the Logos) coming to become flesh?
Or ...
Was He given at the time when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary,
causing the Child to have God the Holy Spirit playing the role of His "father",
thus becoming the unique "ONLY-begotten Son of God"?

What do you mean “Or”?
What is the difference in the two things you said? I see no difference.

In Scripture there are 2 obvious "sendings" by Father God:
#1 - He sent the Word (the Logos) to earth to become flesh (Jesus).
#2 - 30 years later, He sent Jesus (the Son of God) into the world with His gospel.
I see much confusion in Scripture between these 2 sendings ...
and I am sure they can only be resolved through spiritual revelation, which is how all spiritual truth comes!

Again, how do you see it as differences?

News Flash! I still am unnable to find any Scripture proving the Son of God was eternally in heaven, i.e. prior to Jesus' birth.

Here are three scriptures that prove Jesus was in heaven prior to his earthly birth.

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

 

[Jedi Knight]

News Flash[/U]![/SIZE] I still am unnable to find any Scripture proving the Son of God was eternally in heaven, i.e. prior to Jesus' birth.

I have given you solid facts from scripture"very basic" as well as others here. You have no excuse.