Who will answer with a yes or no?

[kyredneck]

Correct me if I'm wrong @Van. Salvation, according to Vanology, begins with a person's will/choice/decision to believe/put their faith in Christ and then God chooses whether or not to credit their belief/faith as righteousness. Is that the sequence that you espouse?

God chooses whether or not to credit their belief/faith as righteousness. According to Vanology, is that the 'election according to the purpose of God'?

If this is correct, what does Vanology say about this:

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus.... 1 Cor 1

Who puts one in Christ Jesus? The Creature? God? Both? From what I've gleaned from Vanology, your system has the creature initiating salvation by choosing to believe, and then God elects whether or not to honor His promise of eternal life to them that believe.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Policy on threads dealing with sovereignty of God v sovereignty of man, Calvinism v Arminianism, and their ilk is to isolate and confine to this C&A forum. Sadly, this policy has not been enforced but will be.

Thank you for looking at the topic you may post and having the honesty to segregate it to the correct Forum. Defiance of this historic policy (translation topics are in Bible Version Forum, etc) will make me assume one does not really want to be a part of the BB.

 

[kyredneck]

Calvinism v Arminianism, and their ilk

Here's another one: Fresh Flower | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

[add]

2 Timothy 1:9 Study | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

Who bought what? | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

Biblical Human Will Limitations | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

 

[Van]

Policy on threads dealing with sovereignty of God v sovereignty of man, Calvinism v Arminianism, and their ilk is to isolate and confine to this C&A forum. Sadly, this policy has not been enforced but will be.

Thank you for looking at the topic you may post and having the honesty to segregate it to the correct Forum. Defiance of this historic policy (translation topics are in Bible Version Forum, etc) will make me assume one does not really want to be a part of the BB.

I see that my threads have been singled out for movement to suppress my views. Hopefully the threads posted advocating the other side will also be moved. For example, "The God of Salvation" mentions the sovereignty of God.

I see this as simply one group of posters trying to suppress the views of others.

 

[Dr. Bob]

I see that my threads have been singled out for movement to suppress my views.

You've been an adult for a while and know the rule. I was amazed to see a couple blatant Cal v Arm themed threads by you posted elsewhere. If you see a post that is in the wrong forum, I'd appreciate you pointing it out to me. I've move some to the Versions forum regularly.

 

[ChristB4Us]

1) Is it wrong to believe fallen mankind is able to seek God and trust in Christ, in light of God revealing Himself and providing the gospel of Christ?

If mankind is able to seek God and trust in Christ, then why did Jesus say this?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

It looks to me that no man can come to the son unless the Father draws him AND that the father is the One that reveals His Son to some for how they are able to believe in Him and be saved.

So why does the Father reveal His Son to some but not everyone? Jesus explains...

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So the Father knows who prefer their evil deeds over those that would come to the light to have their evil deeds reproved and that is why He draws some to the Son to reveal His Son to us so we can believe and be saved at the hearing of the gospel.

We see this happen in the Book of Acts.

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.

8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.

9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.

10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

You would think His disciples would doubt that was the Holy Spirit forbidding them to preach the gospel in Asia when that commandment was to go out there and preach Him in all nations, but Jesus did say this.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

So the Father knows whom would receive His Son from those that prefer their evil deeds.

And when sinners are slaves to sin for how and why sin drives them away from the holy God, is why the Father has to draw them unto the Son to reveal His Son so they can believe in Him & be saved.

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Faith comes by hearing the word hence the preaching of the cross as in the Good News of Jesus Christ. Romans 10:17

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And yet the Holy Spirit come by hearing the word.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Kind of brings the whole new meaning to John 3:21 that our believing in Jesus Christ is a manifested work of God.

John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So we can give thanks to the Father in Jesus's name for enabling us to believe in His Son to be saved.

 

[Van]

You've been an adult for a while and know the rule. I was amazed to see a couple blatant Cal v Arm themed threads by you posted elsewhere. If you see a post that is in the wrong forum, I'd appreciate you pointing it out to me. I've move some to the Versions forum regularly.

You statement claims my posts belonged in the forum for debate between Arminianism and Calvinism. Since I am neither, my posts do not support either position. I present scripturally based viewpoints based on my study of God's word.

 

[Van]

If mankind is able to seek God and trust in Christ, then why did Jesus say this?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
SNIP

So why does the Father reveal His Son to some but not everyone? Jesus explains...
SNIP
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So the Father knows who prefer their evil deeds over those that would come to the light to have their evil deeds reproved and that is why He draws some to the Son to reveal His Son to us so we can believe and be saved at the hearing of the gospel. SNIP

1) Mankind can seek God and trust in Christ. John 6:44 does not even address your false claim. Unless God draws a person, referring to God's revelation of His lovingkindness, which attracts people, we love Him because He first loved us, they will not put their trust and full devotion upon Him. Look at it this way, you would not come to the water hole if you did not know about the water hole. Further, you would not come to a water hole you heard about unless you trusted in the compassion of the One revealing it to you.

2) We are not to judge God (why did God not reveal supernaturally the gospel to everyone?). God desires all mankind to be saved and come to the knowledge (or recognition) of the truth. Jesus is the Truth. His chosen method to present the truth to mankind is for born anew believers to act as Ambassadors with the ministry of Christ, presenting the gospel and making disciples.

3) We were all once children of wrath, predisposed to sinful behavior, and this is no mystery to God. The claim God only reveals Himself to preselected individuals chosen before creation is a complete fiction, read into verses, rather than derived from scripture.

4) Not everyone who hears and accepts the gospel is saved. Consider soils #2 and 3 of Matthew 13.[/QUOTE]

 

[ChristB4Us]

1) Mankind can seek God and trust in Christ. John 6:44 does not even address your false claim.

What is exactly my false claim when I applied it verbatim? No man can come to Him unless the Father draws him.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Unless God draws a person, referring to God's revelation of His lovingkindness, which attracts people, we love Him because He first loved us, they will not put their trust and full devotion upon Him. Look at it this way, you would not come to the water hole if you did not know about the water hole. Further, you would not come to a water hole you heard about unless you trusted in the compassion of the One revealing it to you.

The only way anyone can come to the water hole is by Someone leading them to that waterhole.

2) We are not to judge God (why did God not reveal supernaturally the gospel to everyone?). God desires all mankind to be saved and come to the knowledge (or recognition) of the truth. Jesus is the Truth. His chosen method to present the truth to mankind is for born anew believers to act as Ambassadors with the ministry of Christ, presenting the gospel and making disciples.

Yet Jesus said this;

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

If you are sharing the gospel to someone, and they do not want to hear it, you are obligated by His words to stop. However, when sharing the gospel in public, like street evangelism, and they do not want to hear it, they are free to walk away.

3) We were all once children of wrath, predisposed to sinful behavior, and this is no mystery to God. The claim God only reveals Himself to preselected individuals chosen before creation is a complete fiction, read into verses, rather than derived from scripture.

Remember Cyrus in the Old Testament where Isaiah shared that God called him by name? That prophesy was given long before Cyrus was born according to one report from biblical scholars.

Cyrus the Great in the Bible: Persian King's Biblical Prophecy (totallyhistory.com)

"In the book of Isaiah, the prophet mentioned Cyrus 150 years before he was born, describing him as the “anointed” one or Messiah, who will be raised for “He will rebuild (God’s) city and set (God’s) exiles free, but not for a price or reward” (Isaiah 45:13). " quoted from link

4) Not everyone who hears and accepts the gospel is saved. Consider soils #2 and 3 of Matthew 13.

[

The first soil is about unbelievers whereas the 2nd and 3rd soil is about saved believers having received the seed hence salvation, but did not bear fruit as His disciples as His disciples did in the 4th type of soil when rooted in His words..

 

[Brightfame52]

Is it wrong to believe fallen people can seek God and trust in Christ? The Calvinists say "yes" it is wrong. The non-Calvinists say no, it is not wrong.

John 6:28-29 NET
So then they said to him, "What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?" Jesus replied, "This is the deed God requires - to believe in the one whom he sent."

Thats not for fallen mankind, but for the redeemed Sheep

 

[Van]

Thats not for fallen mankind, but for the redeemed Sheep

False doctrine is supported by false claims. True doctrine, what the bible actually teaches, is supported by specific references to scripture.

I supported the biblical view with a specific scripture. The false claim was that Jesus was providing the answer to those who had already been redeemed. But no support for the false claim was provided.

Just look at John 6:30, they were not believers, so they had not been redeemed.

 

[Van]

What is exactly my false claim when I applied it verbatim? No man can come to Him unless the Father draws him.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Of course the false claim is that the lost cannot seek God or put their trust in Christ.

In the verse, scripture says that no one can put their trust in God unless they were first drawn (attracted by being made aware God loves them and died to provide the means of reconciliation.) The false claim turns the need to know into the supposed need to be enabled to know.

 

[KenH]

Of course the false claim is that the lost cannot seek God or put their trust in Christ.

Of course, the lost WILL seek God, and WILL believe and trust in the righteousness of God, and WILL believe and trust in Christ and His finished work in fulfilling ALL of the conditions for their salvation - AFTER they are born again, given spiritual life by the Holy Spirit, through the proclamation of the gospel of Christ.

Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,
In the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: Thou hast the dew of thy youth.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:3-8 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[kyredneck]

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him

...and vice versa:

27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal [him.] Mt 11

The only way anyone can come to the water hole is by Someone leading them to that waterhole.

Spot on.

 

[kyredneck]

the lost cannot seek God or put their trust in Christ.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [Even] because ye cannot hear my word.
47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear [them] not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. Jn 10

14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2

 

[kyredneck]

You statement claims my posts belonged in the forum for debate between Arminianism and Calvinism. Since I am neither, my posts do not support either position. I present scripturally based viewpoints based on my study of God's word.

Van, probably 95% of your threads are blatantly anti-Calvinist and belong on this forum.

 

[ChristB4Us]

...and vice versa:

27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal [him.] Mt 11

Not sure how you had applied "...and vice versa" to that when it is still on the Father to reveal His Son to those He is drawing unto the Son to believe in Him to be saved.

Spot on.

As that Someone is the Father and that watering hole for life is that Son.

I believe it is because of sin which separates us from God is why the Father has to intervene in giving us unto the Son.

 

[Brightfame52]

False doctrine is supported by false claims. True doctrine, what the bible actually teaches, is supported by specific references to scripture.

I supported the biblical view with a specific scripture. The false claim was that Jesus was providing the answer to those who had already been redeemed. But no support for the false claim was provided.

Just look at John 6:30, they were not believers, so they had not been redeemed.

They were the Sheep who were redeemed and would become believers.Many whom Christ died for and redeemed will not become believers until a day appointed. Redemption ensures all the Sheep will believe.

 

[kyredneck]

Not sure how you had applied "...and vice versa" to that when it is still on the Father to reveal His Son to those He is drawing unto the Son to believe in Him to be saved.

Read closely:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him

...and vice versa:

27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal [him.] Mt 11

 

[ChristB4Us]

Read closely:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him

...and vice versa:

27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal [him.] Mt 11

Still read that as the Father as the he to and the whomsoever ( that is us ) but the Son "willeth" is the Father's will since to reveal [him] as in reveal the Son to us is how we believe in Him to be saved. I apply that "willeth" after the Son towards the "he" to whomsoever as that he being the Father and to whomsoever being us that believe in the Son that was revealed to us.

The Son does not decide whom He reveals Himself to,, but the Father does as He is the One that gives us to the Son to be saved. Mayhap the scripture below helps how I am reading that verse in that way as it is on Him to cause the increase.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.