Who will answer with a yes or no?

[Brightfame52]

False doctrine is supported by false claims. True doctrine, what the bible actually teaches, is supported by specific references to scripture.

I supported the biblical view with a specific scripture. The false claim was that Jesus was providing the answer to those who had already been redeemed. But no support for the false claim was provided.

Just look at John 6:30, they were not believers, so they had not been redeemed.

You cant say a person isnt redeemed because they are not a believer. Paul was redeemed by Christ even when he was saul the persecutor, but since he had been redeemed Jesus gave him Faith to believe on Him 1 Tim 1:12-16

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

 

[kyredneck]

@ChristB4Us- NEVER MIND

I'm not into straining gnats.

I suppose "I and the Father are one" escapes you.

 

[ChristB4Us]

You cant say a person isnt redeemed because they are not a believer. Paul was redeemed by Christ even when he was saul the persecutor, but since he had been redeemed Jesus gave him Faith to believe on Him

Your reference below does not testify to Paul being redeemed before he became a believer when before, he was a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious as verse 13 testifies so how was he redeemed before he was a believer?

1 Tim 1:12-16

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

We have redemption through His blood and only by being a believer can he had that redemption by faith in Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[ChristB4Us]

@ChristB4Us- NEVER MIND

I'm not into straining gnats.

Granted the verse you referred to was conflated and convoluted but the other scriptures I had mentioned aligns with how I was applying your reference to mean for why I do not see that as vise versa.

So we can disagree on that verse and pray for ne another since it is on God to cause the increase as that iron sharpen iron is His ministry to perform.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

25 Brethren, pray for us.

 

[Brightfame52]

Your reference below does not testify to Paul being redeemed before he became a believer when before, he was a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious as verse 13 testifies so how was he redeemed before he was a believer?



We have redemption through His blood and only by being a believer can he had that redemption by faith in Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Sure Paul and any other believer was redeemed by Christ prior to becoming believers. They were redeemed solely by Christ having been made a curse for them upon the Cross Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

 

[Van]

Of course, the lost WILL seek God, and WILL believe and trust in the righteousness of God, and WILL believe and trust in Christ and His finished work in fulfilling ALL of the conditions for their salvation - AFTER they are born again, given spiritual life by the Holy Spirit, through the proclamation of the gospel of Christ.

Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,
In the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: Thou hast the dew of thy youth.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:3-8 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Folks, not one of the above verses says or suggests the lost are unable to believe and establish their faith. However Romans 9:16 clearly indicates the lost are able to will and to do things to be saved. There salvation does not depend on their being willing or doing things. Thus the capacity is pre-salvation. Full Stop.

 

[Van]

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [Even] because ye cannot hear my word.
47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear [them] not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. Jn 10

14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2

LOL, note how being "of God" means a person is open to God's word, but if you mind is closed to the truth of God's word, you are not "of God. Ditto for being of My Sheep. But the fields are white for harvest indicating many people are indeed open to God's word, thus we need more witnesses!

Therefore, "Of course the false claim is that the lost cannot seek God or put their trust in Christ."

In John 6:44, scripture says that no one can put their trust in God unless they were first drawn (attracted by being made aware God loves them and died to provide their means of reconciliation.) The false claim turns the need to know into the supposed need to be enabled to know.

 

[Van]

They were the Sheep who were redeemed and would become believers.Many whom Christ died for and redeemed will not become believers until a day appointed. Redemption ensures all the Sheep will believe.

Unbiblical nonsense.

When a person is chosen, they are placed in Christ, thus redeemed.

 

[Van]

You cant say a person isnt redeemed because they are not a believer. Paul was redeemed by Christ even when he was saul the persecutor, but since he had been redeemed Jesus gave him Faith to believe on Him 1 Tim 1:12-16
SNIP
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

1 Timothy 1:15-16
It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost. Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost sinner Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Thus, once again, the passage does not say Paul was redeemed before he believed, but rather that he was redeemed after being a "foremost sinner" as an example for other sinners of God's patience.

 

[kyredneck]

Unbiblical nonsense.

When a person is chosen, they are placed in Christ, thus redeemed.

Your's is the garbage of Vanology. Your system has the creature initiating salvation by choosing to believe, and then God elects whether or not to honor His promise of eternal life to them that believe.

 

[Van]

Your's is the garbage of Vanology. Your system has the creature initiating salvation by choosing to believe, and then God elects whether or not to honor His promise of eternal life to them that believe.

You simply hurl denials, followed by manufactured false misrepresentations.

Do humans "initiate" salvation? Does "No one can come to Me unless drawn by the Father" ring a bell?

Did God say everyone believing into Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. What exactly do we do to "believe into Him?

Salvation is initiated by God. Salvation is completed by God. Salvation is by God alone.

Folks, pay no attention to the Falseology of Mr. Kyredneck.

 

[kyredneck]

note how being "of God" means....

...one is 'of God', in lieu of:

44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear [them] not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8

12 not as Cain was of the evil one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his works were evil, and his brother`s righteous. 1 Jn 3

70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell? Mt 23

 

[kyredneck]

You simply hurl denials, followed by manufactured false misrepresentations.

Do humans "initiate" salvation? Does "No one can come to Me unless drawn by the Father" ring a bell?

Did God say everyone believing into Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. What exactly do we do to "believe into Him?

Salvation is initiated by God. Salvation is completed by God. Salvation is by God alone.

Folks, pay no attention to the Falseology of Mr. Kyredneck.

Wow, Van, have you flipped and come to the 'other side'?

 

[Van]

...one is 'of God', in lieu of:
SNIP

Here is the posted statement:

LOL, note how being "of God" means a person is open to God's word, but if you mind is closed to the truth of God's word, you are not "of God. Ditto for being of My Sheep. But the fields are white for harvest indicating many people are indeed open to God's word, thus we need more witnesses!

And note not one of the references addressed the statement. Go figure​

 

[Van]

Wow, Van, have you flipped and come to the 'other side'?

As if Mr. Kyrednect had not known the biblical position I have stated dozens of times. Folks, falsehoods are supported by constant misdirection.

 

[kyredneck]

LOL, note how being "of God" means a person is open to God's word,

No. If one is 'of God' then one is not 'of the devil'.

 

[Van]

No. If one is 'of God' then one is not 'of the devil'.

Note the non-sequitur? Did anyone equate being "of the Devil with being "of God?

The ones who of the devil do not understand, the one of God understands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Folks, note the non-stop nonsense, a smokescreed to hide truth.

 

[kyredneck]

The ones who of the devil do not understand,

No, Van, get it right. They don't understand because they cannot hear:

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [Even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil.....
47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear [them] not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. Jn 10

 

[ChristB4Us]

Sure Paul and any other believer was redeemed by Christ prior to becoming believers. They were redeemed solely by Christ having been made a curse for them upon the Cross Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Are you of that mindset that everyone is saved regardless if they believe in Jesus Christ or not?

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law for all those that believed in Jesus Christ.

 

[Van]

No, Van, get it right. They don't understand because they cannot hear:

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [Even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil.....
47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear [them] not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. Jn 10

No, you simply read into the text your presuppositions. You have been deceived.
I tell you the truth, but you cannot hear. That is because you are of the blinded by doctrine.
You are not open to the word of God, your mind has been closed by false doctrine
Thankt God you are saved, because of the inability to accept reality when it differs from your doctrine..

 

[Brightfame52]

Unbiblical nonsense.

When a person is chosen, they are placed in Christ, thus redeemed.

Actually its the Truth. Redemption is by the blood/death of Christ. Christ died in 33 ad and redeemed them He died for, now the redeemed may not have been born a sinner until 1945, when were they redeemed by Chrits death ? In 33 ad, but they wont experience its blessings until sometime beyond 1945, after they are born sinners.