Who will answer with a yes or no?

[Van]

1) Is it wrong to believe fallen mankind is able to seek God and trust in Christ, in light of God revealing Himself and providing the gospel of Christ?

2) Did God really choose some foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith when He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world? If this was a corporate election then God did not choose any specific individuals, just the target group of His redemption plan, those who would be redeemed by His Redeemer.

3) Is our faith in Christ really instilled supernaturally, i.e. a gift of faith? What does scripture say, 1 Corinthians 12:3 and Ephesians 2:8?

4) What does "no man can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit" mean? (1 Corinthians 12:3).

5) Does choosing to seek God and trust in Christ make salvation dependent on man and not on God? Romans 9:16

6) Does Christ making it possible for all men to be saved mean He does not actually save all who are saved?

7) Does the "from our point of view" dodge really resolve the conflict over when we were chosen, after we believed or before creation?

8) Does scripture say no one would ever make the right choice unless God supernaturally intervened and caused that choice? (Revelation 3:20, Joshua 24:15, Hebrews 3:7-8, 2 Corinthians 3:5)

9) Is Calvinism's only err the cart before the horse sequencing of choosing some individuals for salvation then sending Christ to die as a ransom for all?

10) Do Arminians err when they put God's choice of individuals after they believe?

11) If many are invited but few are chosen, then what condition precluded the rest?

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

not me. can't. too many twists and turns and roadblocks and swindling, tricky wiles.

YES!! 1) "...it wrong to believe fallen mankind is able to seek God and trust in Christ,..."

YES!! 1.) ..."fallen mankind is able to seek God and trust in Christ,
in light of God revealing Himself and providing the gospel of Christ"...

TYPICAL TWISTED-NESS-ITUS: 1) Is it wrong to believe fallen mankind is able to seek God and trust in Christ,
in light of God revealing Himself and providing the gospel of Christ?"
...

you won't get your answer TO ANYTHING THE BIBLE TEACHES ABOUT SALVATION OF AN INDIVIDUAL'S SOUL,
until you learn what the Bible teaches about EVERY individual human beings ETERNAL GUILT
as breakers of God's Universal Inescapable Moral Laws of The Universe that He Created before He created us,
which Infinitely Offend His Trice-Holy Eternal PERFECTION, AND THEREFORE, WILL BE JUDGED BY HIM,
WITH AN ETERNAL JUDGEMENT, as the Judge of the Universe.

that's why you'll want to go by what The Bible says, instead of what you have to spin it around in a knot about,
to make it into all ETERNAL LIES.


TYPICAL TWISTED-NESS-ITUS:

3.) What does scripture say, 1 Corinthians 12:3 and Ephesians 2:8?

DEAR VAN, THIS IS NOT A "YES OR NO" QUESTION.

...

DEAR VAN, THIS IS NOT A "YES OR NO" QUESTION, EITHER:

4) What does "no man can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit" mean? (1 Corinthians 12:3).

TYPICAL TWISTED-NESS-ITUS:
...

What you need, about as much as anything, is some more great, superb, gold star cut & paste material,
from a secondary source on the internet, because you don't know enough on your own right now
to do you any good in even asking questions that can be answered with a "yes or no", per the O.P., etc.
(re: TYPICAL TWISTED-NESS-ITUS).

Here's some GOOD HONEST QUESTIONS FOR THE SAKE OF HONESTY;

"It is our deep conviction that the vital question most requiring to be raised today is this:
Is man a totally and thoroughly depraved creature by nature?

"Does he enter the world completely ruined and helpless, spiritually blind and dead in trespasses and sins?"

These are statements;

"According as is our answer to that question,
so will be our views on many others.

"It is on the basis of this dark background
that the whole Bible proceeds.

"Any attempt to modify or abate, repudiate
or tone down the teaching of Scripture on the matter is *fatal."

*(Alan's Note: That would be, "ETERNALLY" fatal.)

Here are some more straightforward, rational, reasonable questions;

"Put the question in another form:

"Is man now in such a condition that he cannot be saved
without the Special and Direct Intervention of the Triune God on his behalf?

"In other words, is there any hope for him apart from his Personal Election by the Father,
His Particular Redemption by the Son, and the Supernatural Operations of the Spirit within him?

Or, putting it in still another way:
"If man is a totally depraved being, can he possibly take the first step in the matter of his return to God?"


The Scriptural Answer:

"The scriptural answer to that question makes evident the utter futility
of the schemes of social reformers for "the moral elevation of the masses,"
the plans of politicians for the peace of the nations, and the ideologies of dreamers
to usher in a golden age for this world.

"It is both pathetic and tragic to see many of our greatest men putting their faith in such chimeras.
Divisions and discords, hatred and bloodshed, cannot be banished while human nature is what it is.

"But during the past century the steady trend of a deteriorating Christendom
has been to underrate the evil of sin and overrate the moral capabilities of men.

"Instead of proclaiming the heinousness of sin, there has been a dwelling more upon its inconveniences,
and the abasing portrayal of the lost condition of man as set forth in Holy Writ has been obscured if not obliterated
by flattering disquisitions on human advancement.

"If the popular religion of the churches—including nine-tenths of what is termed "evangelical Christianity—
be tested at this point, it will be found that it clashes directly with man's fallen,
ruined and spiritually dead condition."

Anyone actually genuinely interested in the Ultimate Destiny of their Eternal soul, seriously, may see:
The Total Depravity of Man by A. W. Pink

 

[JonC]

1) Is it wrong to believe fallen mankind is able to seek God and trust in Christ, in light of God revealing Himself and providing the gospel of Christ? NO

2) Did God really choose some foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith when He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world? If this was a corporate election then God did not choose any specific individuals, just the target group of His redemption plan, those who would be redeemed by His Redeemer. YES.....TO BOTH PARTS (God is omniscient)

3) Is our faith in Christ really instilled supernaturally, i.e. a gift of faith? What does scripture say, 1 Corinthians 12:3 and Ephesians 2:8? NO. LED SUPERNATURALLY

4) What does "no man can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit" mean? (1 Corinthians 12:3). THAT TRUTH IS A SPIRITUAL TRUTH

5) Does choosing to seek God and trust in Christ make salvation dependent on man and not on God? Romans 9:16. NO, SEE QUESTION 1.

6) Does Christ making it possible for all men to be saved mean He does not actually save all who are saved? YES.

7) Does the "from our point of view" dodge really resolve the conflict over when we were chosen, after we believed or before creation? YES

8) Does scripture say no one would ever make the right choice unless God supernaturally intervened and caused that choice? (Revelation 3:20, Joshua 24:15, Hebrews 3:7-8, 2 Corinthians 3:5) DEPENDS ON THE CONTEXT

9) Is Calvinism's only err the cart before the horse sequencing of choosing some individuals for salvation then sending Christ to die as a ransom for all? NO. THIS ERROR CAME FROM MORE BASIC ERRORS.

10) Do Arminians err when they put God's choice of individuals after they believe? NO. BOTH BEFORE AND AFTER CAN BE SAID.

11) If many are invited but few are chosen, then what condition precluded the rest?[/QUOTE] REPENTANCE AND BELIEF

 

[percho]

Did Adam fall or did the action of Adam carry forth the plan unto the following?

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8 NKJV
Heb 2:14 YLT Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through [the] death he might destroy him having the power of [the] death -- that is, the devil --

Could those verses be possible with the action of Adam?

to open their eyes, to turn from darkness to light, and the authority of the Adversary [Satan the devil] unto God, From Acts 26:18
the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters, and God saith, 'Let light be;' and light is. And God seeth the light that good, and God separateth [divided] between the light and the darkness, Gen 1:2-4

What do you think caused darkness on the face of the deep? Is there Darkness on the earth, today? Will there be a time when there will be no Night, Darkness on the earth? When did the Darkness of the age begin?

Acts 15:18 YLT 'Known from the ages to God are all His works;

What age?


I don't think it makes a difference what we think, I think God is in charge, of salvation.

Save thyself, and come down from the cross. Mark 15:30 IMHO the one thing he could not do in order to save himself.

And IMHO I do not think we can save ourselves by doing.

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1) Is it wrong to believe fallen mankind is able to seek God and trust in Christ, in light of God revealing Himself and providing the gospel of Christ?

Yes. The important question is why this is so, but you haven't asked that so I won't answer it.

2) Did God really choose some foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith when He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world? If this was a corporate election then God did not choose any specific individuals, just the target group of His redemption plan, those who would be redeemed by His Redeemer.

Yes. The election is corporate in that it is the great crowd of Revelation 7:9, but each one of that crowd is, of course, an individual.

3) Is our faith in Christ really instilled supernaturally, i.e. a gift of faith? What does scripture say, 1 Corinthians 12:3 and Ephesians 2:8?

Yes. What does scripture say? 1 Corinthians 12:3 and Ephesians 2:8 and 2 Peter 1:1.

4) What does "no man can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit" mean? (1 Corinthians 12:3).

How does one answer this with a "yes" or "no"? "Jesus is Lord" is an exceedingly easy sentence to say. Obviously, it means that no one can say and mean that Jesus Christ is Lord unless God opens his heart to receive that truth.

5) Does choosing to seek God and trust in Christ make salvation dependent on man and not on God? Romans 9:16

No. Psalms 110:3. Everyone who is saved will choose to seek God and trust in Christ. The question is, what moves him to do so?

6) Does Christ making it possible for all men to be saved mean He does not actually save all who are saved?

This is gobbledegook. Christ saves all those who ever are saved. John 14:6; Acts of the Apostles 16:14; John 6:37-40.

7) Does the "from our point of view" dodge really resolve the conflict over when we were chosen, after we believed or before creation?

More gobbledegook. What is the '"from our point of view" dodge'?

8) Does scripture say no one would ever make the right choice unless God supernaturally intervened and caused that choice? (Revelation 3:20, Joshua 24:15, Hebrews 3:7-8, 2 Corinthians 3:5)

If you mean, does Scripture say that no one would ever choose Christ unless God supernaturally intervened, then Yes.
Matthew 11:27; John 3:19; 6:40; 10:26; Acts of the Apostles 13:28 etc., etc.

9) Is Calvinism's only err [sic] the cart before the horse sequencing of choosing some individuals for salvation then sending Christ to die as a ransom for all?

???? How does one sequence a horse?

10) Do Arminians err when they put God's choice of individuals after they believe?

Yes.

11) If many are invited but few are chosen, then what condition precluded the rest?

They did not repent and believe. 'Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

 

[Van]

Is it wrong to believe fallen people can seek God and trust in Christ? The Calvinists say "yes" it is wrong. The non-Calvinists say no, it is not wrong.

John 6:28-29 NET
So then they said to him, "What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?" Jesus replied, "This is the deed God requires - to believe in the one whom he sent."

 

[Van]

Did God really choose some foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith when He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world? If this was a corporate election then God did not choose any specific individuals, just the target group of His redemption plan, those who would be redeemed by His Redeemer.

Both the answers to this question claimed a corporate election is comprised of specific individuals. This is of course false. A corporate election is comprised o a kind of people, i.e. redeemed believers, rather than specific individuals who would be come to believe and be redeemed. That election is individual, not corporate.

A second claim was made that God knows the future exhaustively and therefore corporate election is actually impossible. So once again a discussion is deflected into a storehouse of falsehood to avoid actual discussion of the topic at hand.

Scripture actually precludes the election of Ephesians 1:4 from being of individuals before creation as every chosen individual was once "not a people" chosen for God's own possession and once has not received mercy, both of which means they were not chosen individually for salvation before creation.

 

[Van]

Is our faith in Christ really instilled?

Three responses were posted. First the claim was made this is not a yes or no question. Rational minds object.
Second the correct "no" answer was given, but then obliterated with "led supernaturally." Which could be instilled or given rather than a choice of the individual. The third answer was yes, our initial faith in Christ was instilled or given to us.

Thus not one response clearly and unambiguously recognized God credits our faith as righteousness, or not, rather than instills a faith then credits the already righteous faith as righteousness.

 

[kyredneck]

1) Is it wrong to believe fallen mankind is able to seek God and trust in Christ, in light of God revealing Himself and providing the gospel of Christ?

No. It it not wrong to believe that. Acts of the Apostles 17:27

2) Did God really choose some foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith when He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world? If this was a corporate election then God did not choose any specific individuals, just the target group of His redemption plan, those who would be redeemed by His Redeemer.

No. Your take on election is not Biblical. Election is unconditional:

1 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, Ro 9

Election is individual:

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9

3) Is our faith in Christ really instilled supernaturally, i.e. a gift of faith? What does scripture say, 1 Corinthians 12:3 and Ephesians 2:8?

Yes. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit.

4) What does "no man can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit" mean? (1 Corinthians 12:3).

3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;` Jn 3 YLT

5) Does choosing to seek God and trust in Christ make salvation dependent on man and not on God? Romans 9:16

Yes. God has wrought beforehand in all those that come to the light. John 3:21

6) Does Christ making it possible for all men to be saved mean He does not actually save all who are saved?

Christ saved His people from their sins. Matthew 1:21

7) Does the "from our point of view" dodge really resolve the conflict over when we were chosen, after we believed or before creation?

All those ordained to eternal life will believe. Acts of the Apostles 13:48

8) Does scripture say no one would ever make the right choice unless God supernaturally intervened and caused that choice? (Revelation 3:20, Joshua 24:15, Hebrews 3:7-8, 2 Corinthians 3:5)

Scripture says:

4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn [upon them].
6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4

9) Is Calvinism's only err the cart before the horse sequencing of choosing some individuals for salvation then sending Christ to die as a ransom for all?

There is no "cart before the horse" with a God who declares the end from the beginning. Isaiah 46:10

11) If many are invited but few are chosen, then what condition precluded the rest?

2 Corinthians 4:4-6

 

[Van]

SNIJP
No. Your take on election is not Biblical. Election is unconditional:
SNIP
1 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, Ro 9 SNIP
/QUOTE]

1) Individual election for salvation is condition, 2 Thessalonians 2:13

2) Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

This is the obvious ploy of proving "A" and claiming "B" has been proven. God conditionally chose the older to serve the younger, for His purpose which was not "for salvation." This has absolutely nothing to do with God choosing believers who love God for salvation, as taught specifically in verse after verse, such as James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and 1 Corinthians 1:21. God saves those individuals whose faith He credits as righteousness.

 

[Van]

↑[/URL]']
SNIJP
No. Your take on election is not Biblical. Election is unconditional:
SNIP
1 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, Ro 9 SNIP

1) Individual election for salvation is conditional, 2 Thessalonians 2:13

2) Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

This is the obvious ploy of proving "A" and claiming "B" has been proven. God conditionally chose the older to serve the younger, for His purpose which was not "for salvation." This has absolutely nothing to do with God choosing believers who love God for salvation, as taught specifically in verse after verse, such as James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and 1 Corinthians 1:21. God saves those individuals whose faith He credits as righteousness.

 

[Dave G]

1) Is it wrong to believe fallen mankind is able to seek God and trust in Christ, in light of God revealing Himself and providing the gospel of Christ?

"as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
and the way of peace have they not known:
there is no fear of God before their eyes. " ( Romans 3:10-18 ).

" At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]." ( Matthew

 

[Dave G]

2) Did God really choose some foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith when He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world? If this was a corporate election then God did not choose any specific individuals, just the target group of His redemption plan, those who would be redeemed by His Redeemer.

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence." ( Ephesians 1:3-8 ).

See also Romans 8:29-30 and Romans 9.
Psalms 65:4 also comes to mind.

 

[Dave G]

3) Is our faith in Christ really instilled supernaturally, i.e. a gift of faith? What does scripture say

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God ." ( Ephesians 2:8 )

" I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." ( Galatians 2:20 ).

" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. " ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

 

[Dave G]

11) If many are invited but few are chosen, then what condition precluded the rest?

Election precluded all of it.

In addition,
Being part of the nation of Israel and of the physical seed of Abraham is who this passage ( Matthew 22:14 ) pertains to...
Israel as a nation was invited, but few were chosen.

Please see the parable of the wedding garment ( Matthew 22:2-14 ) and the parable of the feast ( Luke 14:15-24 ).

It was necessary for the Gospel to be preached first to Israel, because of God's love of that nation for the sake of their fathers...Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
This did not negate God's purpose according to election, as the children of Israel would become as the sand of the sea, but only a remnant would be saved ( Romans 9:27 ).

 

[kyredneck]

1) Individual election for salvation is conditional, 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Not,

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. Ro 9

2) Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

This is the obvious ploy of proving "A" and claiming "B" has been proven. God conditionally chose the older to serve the younger,

There's no 'ploy' to it. How much plainer could "not yet born and had not done anything good or bad" be? If you're ELECTED. CHOSEN. while in the womb then it's absolutely unconditional on the electee's part. also known as IRRESISTABLE GRACE, like John the Baptist in his mother's womb. Luke 1:15

 

[Van]

"as it is written,SNIP ( Matthew

I have refuted this bogus claim dozens of times. Yet I cannot seem to remember any response. Then, the bogus claim is remade, unaltered by the truth of the rebuttal.

Paul is saying we (as lost person) are under sin, thus everything we do is a filthy rag to God. Thus if you seek God by the works of the Law, you are not actually seeking God. They actual way to seek God is with faith. This is not rocket science.

Next, the fact a lost person can understand the milk of the gospel is denied.

Next the scriptures that preclude Ephesians 1:4 from being an individual election are denied. Once we were not a people, therefore scripture precludes being individuality chosen before creation.

Next, once again the bogus claim that Ephesians 2:8 says our faith was given to us. Everyone should know that bogus claim is precluded by the grammar. In fact, the gift in view is salvation by grace.

 

[Van]

Not,

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. Ro 9

There's no 'ploy' to it. How much plainer could "not yet born and had not done anything good or bad" be? If you're ELECTED. CHOSEN. while in the womb then it's absolutely unconditional on the electee's part. also known as IRRESISTABLE GRACE, like John the Baptist in his mother's womb. Luke 1:15

Once again the same bogus claims are repeated, but nary a word concerning the rebuttal.

Salvation depends on God crediting a person's faith as righteousness. Thus if a person wills t o be saved, and puts his or her faith in Christ, that does not result in salvation.

Secondly, the rebuttal is ignored and the same bogus claim is repeated: Here is the rebuttal [unedited] again:

2) Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

This is the obvious ploy of proving "A" and claiming "B" has been proven. God conditionally chose the older to serve the younger, for His purpose which was not "for salvation." This has absolutely nothing to do with God choosing believers who love God for salvation, as taught specifically in verse after verse, such as James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and 1 Corinthians 1:21. God saves those individuals whose faith He credits as righteousness.​

 

[kyredneck]

Once again the same bogus claims are repeated, but nary a word concerning the rebuttal.

You're so dishonest. I rebutted your premise of election conditioned upon the will of man soundly with scripture:

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. Ro 9

You're as dishonest as you are a hypocrite. You accuse us of making 'bogus' claims when your entire bogus humanistic premise is 'it is of man that willeth',

 

[kyredneck]

2) Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

This is the obvious ploy of proving "A" and claiming "B" has been proven. God conditionally chose the older to serve the younger, for His purpose which was not "for salvation." This has absolutely nothing to do with God choosing believers who love God for salvation, as taught specifically in verse after verse, such as James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and 1 Corinthians 1:21. God saves those individuals whose faith He credits as righteousness.

<sigh>

The whole premise of Romans 9 is "Salvation is of the LORD"', building upon the purpose of God according to HIS election, NOT that of the creature's.