Who wins souls?

[Van]

God commands us to take the Gospel message to all sinners, as only God knows whom the elect to get saved by it will be, so given freely to all!

This view denies that ministry wins souls. Much of what the Bible teaches is denied by fake theology. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God is another truth denied. This truth screams conditional election, so, like soul winning, must be consigned to their pile of verses that do not mean what they say.

In summary, soul winning is our job and the fields are white for harvest, total spiritual inability is fake theology.

 

[Yeshua1]

This view denies that ministry wins souls. Much of what the Bible teaches is denied by fake theology. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God is another truth denied. This truth screams conditional election, so, like soul winning, must be consigned to their pile of verses that do not mean what they say.

In summary, soul winning is our job and the fields are white for harvest, total spiritual inability is fake theology.

Jesus and Paul must have taught then Fake theology, as did Calvin and others then!

 

[Van]

hi Y1, what is clear is someone has taught you fake theology. That is why you make assertions but cannot support your assertions from scripture.

Does scripture teach believers engage in the ministry of soul winning? Yes
Does scripture teach God chooses people for salvation through faith in the truth? Yes
Did Jesus and Paul teach fake theology? Nope. Their words were inspired.

In summary, soul winning is our job and the fields are white for harvest, total spiritual inability is fake theology.

 

[evangelist6589]

Uh, yes you did very clearly in fact you said:



That is not stating an opinion it is stating it as if it is fact.

Of coarse a critic is going to find a way to nitpick my words!

 

[Rippon]

Of coarse a critic is going to find a way to nitpick my words!

Here I am, the local nitpicker. The word is not coarse, it is course.

 

[Revmitchell]

Of coarse a critic is going to find a way to nitpick my words!

Brother I want to cheer you on. You have a zeal for soul winning and that is far more than the average church member. You also have an integrity issue or at the very least a significant memory issue. You constantly hold difficult positions where you mangle logic, reason, and scripture to defend them but then later come back and act as if you never held them and you were always in line with what most everyone else was saying.

Win souls, make disciples, be more careful about your doctrine. I hope you win lots of people to the Lord.

 

[evangelist6589]

Brother I want to cheer you on. You have a zeal for soul winning and that is far more than the average church member. You also have an integrity issue or at the very least a significant memory issue. You constantly hold difficult positions where you mangle logic, reason, and scripture to defend them but then later come back and act as if you never held them and you were always in line with what most everyone else was saying.

Win souls, make disciples, be more careful about your doctrine. I hope you win lots of people to the Lord.

Explain this memory issue and give examples.

 

[Mr. Davis]

Please click on "expand" for all of JonC's post. I have edited the expanded version to emphasize certain points.

Paul saw winning souls (saving men) as his purpose - not because it was either Paul or God but because it was Christ in him and him in Christ.

God is working through Paul, and God's Word does not come back void. It is also Paul's work in the Kingdom. 1 Corinthians 9 is just as much God's word as is John 6, and neither contradict the other.

1 Cor 9
I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it. Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.

It means putting your all into whatever God calls you to accomplish.

JonC, forgive me if my editing offends you. I wanted to highlight the things that are very important to me.

 

[JonC]

Explain this memory issue and give examples.

Here is a quick example within this thread. You objected to the notion that men “win souls”. I responded with Paul’s statements in 1 Corinthians 9:

The language comes from Paul, who said to the weak he became weak, to "win the weak" that he (Paul) "might save some". So the question could be asked, did Paul win souls for Christ? If so, then we are not as idle as your argument might suppose. If not, then Scripture is wrong. I understand God working through us, and "not I but Christ", but I think you are pressing this to an unbiblical point. I hope that you "might save some" brother.

You reject 1 Corinthians 9:

Wrong. We do our part and God does his part. But only the elect will respond.

And then you pretend you never rejected that Paul was correct to say that he “won” people to Christ and that he “saved” people.

I do not disagree with 1 Cor 9 nor reject it. It's all scripture and all flows together.

You have a point about divine sovereignty and the necessity of God’s drawing in salvation, but then you overstate your position to deny Scripture. When confronted you pretend it never happened and press on. But the fact remains that you have contradicted yourself. Either Paul “won” people and “saved” people or you reject 1 Corinthians 9. You can’t have it both ways.

This is but one of many examples I could have offered. I give this one because it is readily available to you for your consideration. As an addition, you once affirmed that while Scripture did not forbid drinking alcohol it was better to abstain. You once posted “Rules for the Christian Family” which included a command for husbands to love their wives as they loved themselves…which you say is a “present active imperative which implies to ‘keep on loving them’”). Yet you are a divorced drinker.

I'm not gong to "beat you down" with such instances because I do care for you and you are my brother. But I think that somewhere inside you may suspect that you have compromised truth for what you would like to be true.


CERM Church Education Resource Ministries

 

[evangelist6589]

Here is a quick example within this thread. You objected to the notion that men “win souls”. I responded with Paul’s statements in 1 Corinthians 9: You reject 1 Corinthians 9:And then you pretend you never rejected that Paul was correct to say that he “won” people to Christ and that he “saved” people. You have a point about divine sovereignty and the necessity of God’s drawing in salvation, but then you overstate your position to deny Scripture. When confronted you pretend it never happened and press on. But the fact remains that you have contradicted yourself. Either Paul “won” people and “saved” people or you reject 1 Corinthians 9. You can’t have it both ways.

This is but one of many examples I could have offered. I give this one because it is readily available to you for your consideration. As an addition, you once affirmed that while Scripture did not forbid drinking alcohol it was better to abstain. You once posted “Rules for the Christian Family” which included a command for husbands to love their wives as they loved themselves…which you say is a “present active imperative which implies to ‘keep on loving them’”). Yet you are a divorced drinker.

I'm not gong to "beat you down" with such instances because I do care for you and you are my brother. But I think that somewhere inside you may suspect that you have compromised truth for what you would like to be true.


CERM Church Education Resource Ministries

That article on my site is from 2009 and my position on alcohol among other issues has changed. Also I do not reject 1 Cor 9. I see that we preach and God elects. I am a Calvinist so this is my position.

Also the reasons for my divorce are complex and not simple. Frankly she was impossible to live with, and refused to leave and cleave. Could you have lived with a spouse that refused to leave and cleave but insisted on her mother and brother/sister also living in the household always? Could you live with someone that disrespected your family and was always filing for separation whenever she did not get her way? No it was way too stressful for me.

 

[JonC]

No it was way too stressful for me.

I'm not trying to beat you down, brother. But this comment says it all. Your life is not about you just as mine is not about me. I'm not bringing these things up for debate but to give you some insight into the idea some have that you are a reed blown by the wind if your own desires. Maybe that's a wrong take, but here are the reasons some make those accusations.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

So who wins souls you or God? Do you believe in John 6:44? God is the soul winner and no man can come to him unless he is drawn to salvation by God. If God does not draw him then he will not come to God no matter how hard and prepared the soul winner is.

God alone saves. However, God, through the Bible also acknowledges our role in proclaiming the Gospel by which He saves me.

 

[evangelist6589]

I'm not trying to beat you down, brother. But this comment says it all. Your life is not about you just as mine is not about me. I'm not bringing these things up for debate but to give you some insight into the idea some have that you are a reed blown by the wind if your own desires. Maybe that's a wrong take, but here are the reasons some make those accusations.

I gave you my reasons and yet you cut them out of your reply?

 

[TCassidy]

I gave you my reasons and yet you cut them out of your reply?

Now pay attention. I am only going to say this once. Jon left out all of your excuses because, now listen, because as he said "IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT YOU!"

 

[JonC]

I gave you my reasons and yet you cut them out of your reply?

Yes, I cut them out. The reason you gave for divorcing your wife is that she refused to leave her family and cleave to you. I think young couples wrestle with this as men often struggle for independence as a family unit and women often hold on to their family bonds. I think you misinterpret "leave" and "cleave" to mean abandonment and servitude. When you married you also inherited a responsibility to your wife's family. I do not know why you want to bring this up again (please don't blame anyone but yourself), but your grounds for divorce (she "stresses" you out and won't leave her family to cleave to you) was unbiblical. Had you fulfilled your responsibilities perhaps things would have turned out differently down the road (most of us who have been married for some time have gone through difficulties, but we've chosen love over abandonment.

So....I cut out those pathetic excuses you offered for leaving your wife and transgressing the covenant you made before God. I did this to get at the heart of the matter:

No it was way too stressful for me.

Our marriages are not about us, they are about our spouses. I hope you learn this before entering into another marriage.

BUT, NOW THAT WE'RE HERE:

That article on my site is from 2009 and my position on alcohol among other issues has changed. Also I do not reject 1 Cor 9. I see that we preach and God elects. I am a Calvinist so this is my position.

You say that you are a Calvinist so your position:

1. Denies that Paul sought to win those under the Law.
2. Denies that Paul sought to win those not under the Law.
3. Denies that there are lost people to win who are not under the Law.
4. Denies that Paul sought to save some.

In other words, what you are doing is using Calvinism to justify your denial of Paul's statements in 1 Corinthians 9. That doesn't cut it. As @JohnDeereFan pointed out, God acknowledges our role. Your argument against "soul winning" is an argument against Scripture. That said, I think you are just stumbling over the words and not actually denying what is said.

 

[FollowTheWay]

The Holy Spirit works in us and through us to convict others. That is the only way we can do anything that is meaningful to God. if we take the glory for anything as was suggested by the statement that WE must be good fisherman our works are as filthy rags to God. Everything must be done for His glory.

 

[Salty]

I gave you my reasons and yet you cut them out of your reply?

Reasons or excuses ?????

 

[evangelist6589]

For the love of the Gremlin! Will my critics ever cut me some slack!

 

[evangelist6589]

Now pay attention. I am only going to say this once. Jon left out all of your excuses because, now listen, because as he said "IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT YOU!"

Name the post that you have ever supported anything I have said or given me some slack. I cant find one. You are a critic no doubt.

 

[TCassidy]

For the love of the Gremlin! Will my critics ever cut me some slack!

Not until you grow up and act like an adult.