Who Would Christ "Have Been" If Man Did Not Fall?

[Ben1445]

Another point (not mentioned yet) is God would not be God without man falling short of His glory.

Is that what you meant to say?

It sounds like God is only God because man sinned.

Although created in God's image man was still created flesh. Flesh and blood simply will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Flesh is sinful at present and there is no rewind button.

I don’t see any reason that perfect people could not.
But this is 100% hypothetical question. Flesh and blood not inheriting is a post fall statement.

There are many hypothetical questions we could ask.


Would man have fallen had God chosen not to take him from where he was created and place him in the Garden (where God would dwell with him).

Would man be complete without needing a spiritual birth?

He did not die until after sin. I would say that he would not need a spiritual birth without dying.
And there is no indication that while man was made lower than angels, he could not have been made to take on different responsibilities at some point. God could accomplish a similar end without the fall of men.

Was the Fall one step in God's creation process, like a seed that must fall to the ground (so that Christ would be the Firstborn among many brethern)?

These questions lean toward determinism. Unless you have changed your view on that,…
But God can create whatever He wants without starting from seed.

Just my thoughts.

 

[JonC]

Is that what you meant to say?

It sounds like God is only God because man sinned.

Yes. God would not be the God described in the Bible, anyway.

It is not that God is only God because man sinned but that because God is God man falls short of His glory.

Adam (man) was created in the image of God, but not possessing the glory of God. Man falls short.

 

[percho]

I believe the, "fall," of man was necessary for the destruction of the devil, the sinner from the beginning, and the works of the devil? I believe the devil was the sinner before Adam was created.

Man is redeemed out of death.

Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through [the] death he might destroy him having the power of [the] death -- that is, the devil --

[the] is in the Greek. When did the devil acquire the power of the death. Did he have it is Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

That was the reason I asked in the thread that was closed; I wonder what Adam understood, dying thou dost die, to mean.


It appears to me to give life to something that has succumbed to the power of the devil is how God destroys both the devil and his works.

The last enemy that shall be (is being) [destroyed, abolished, eliminated, done away, annulled], the death 1 Cor 15:26


Adam was going to bring the death into the kosmos, world, Christ was going to bring life out of the dead into the kingdom of God to defeat the devil.

 

[percho]

Understanding Romans 16:20

The God of peace shall be crushing the Satan under the feet of you in unto quickness; the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen!

lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed:

Unto quickness.

 

[Aaron]

Hebrews 13:8

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

True. A priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek. An uncorrupted mankind needs no priest, only a sinner does. For whom would He offer gifts and sacrifices?

 

[Aaron]

There are many hypothetical questions we could ask.


Would man have fallen had God chosen not to take him from where he was created and place him in the Garden (where God would dwell with him).

Would man be complete without needing a spiritual birth?

Was the Fall one step in God's creation process, like a seed that must fall to the ground (so that Christ would be the Firstborn among many brethern)?

The question I'm asking is about His identity.

 

[Aaron]

He would be glorified as He was before.

Would He have a bride? Would He have children? By what act would He be given a name that is above all names?

 

[Aaron]

Would He have a bride?

In the case of the first Adam, a suitable bride could not be found in all of creation. One had to be made for him from his own body. I would say that is the case with the Second Adam. Where would God find a bride for His Son? One had to be made for Him from His own body.

 

[Ben1445]

I believe the, "fall," of man was necessary for the destruction of the devil, the sinner from the beginning, and the works of the devil? I believe the devil was the sinner before Adam was created.

Man is redeemed out of death.

Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through [the] death he might destroy him having the power of [the] death -- that is, the devil --

[the] is in the Greek. When did the devil acquire the power of the death. Did he have it is Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

That was the reason I asked in the thread that was closed; I wonder what Adam understood, dying thou dost die, to mean.


It appears to me to give life to something that has succumbed to the power of the devil is how God destroys both the devil and his works.

The last enemy that shall be (is being) [destroyed, abolished, eliminated, done away, annulled], the death 1 Cor 15:26


Adam was going to bring the death into the kosmos, world, Christ was going to bring life out of the dead into the kingdom of God to defeat the devil.

That is to say God could not judge Satan without man to judge, I don’t think God is limited in that way.
But why question the ability of God. We already have an explanation of what is going on. What further do we need.

 

[Ben1445]

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

True. A priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek. An uncorrupted mankind needs no priest, only a sinner does. For whom would He offer gifts and sacrifices?

We are made priests to God by Jesus Christ.
This is a question like would a tree falling in the woods where nobody is make any sound.
Our ignorance and even non-existence shows our own insignificance.
If someone was there to hear the teas fall it would not change anything.
If we were not created, it doesn’t change who God is. It just means we would not know who He is.

 

[Ben1445]

In the case of the first Adam, a suitable bride could not be found in all of creation. One had to be made for him from his own body. I would say that is the case with the Second Adam. Where would God find a bride for His Son? One had to be made for Him from His own body.

That is a great picture.
But as far as the what if’s, the only certainty is that if we were not created, it wouldn’t matter to us. Nothing would bother us.

 

[Aaron]

We are made priests to God by Jesus Christ.
This is a question like would a tree falling in the woods where nobody is make any sound.
Our ignorance and even non-existence shows our own insignificance.
If someone was there to hear the teas fall it would not change anything.
If we were not created, it doesn’t change who God is. It just means we would not know who He is.

Except for the fact that we're told certain things about Him, one of which is that the Son's priesthood has no beginning of days, nor end of life. And every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: - Hebrews 5:1

Though God cannot be charged with unrighteousness, the Fall was part of His plan to exalt His Son. NOT because of His foreknowledge of sin, but because of who the Son is. It wasn't a contingency plan.

If an idyllic existence in a garden paradise where no sin or death ever entered was ever a possible outcome, then Christ's priesthood was conditional, not eternal, as we are clearly told that it is.

The world was made so the Son could offer His body as a sacrifice for sins. Mankind was destined to Fall, many were destined to be saved from that fall. And it was all for the sake of Christ.

Even the title, Christ, would not be His, if He were not a Redeemer.

 

[Aaron]

I believe the, "fall," of man was necessary for the destruction of the devil, the sinner from the beginning, and the works of the devil? I believe the devil was the sinner before Adam was created.

It appears to me to give life to something that has succumbed to the power of the devil is how God destroys both the devil and his works.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. - 1 John 3:8 KJV

It was a long road, but I think I finally understand where you're coming from.

 

[JonC]

The question I'm asking is about His identity.

Ah...OK.

Christ is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world", which is before the Fall.

I guess if Adam did not sin by eating that fruit then he would have sined in some other way (Adam was not created as a glorified being, he fell short of God's glory).

But it seems that Christ's identity was firmly established prior to Adam's sin.

So the answer has to be that man's action did not dictate Christ's identity.

 

[JesusFan]

Another point (not mentioned yet) is God would not be God without man falling short of His glory.

Although created in God's image man was still created flesh. Flesh and blood simply will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There are many hypothetical questions we could ask.


Would man have fallen had God chosen not to take him from where he was created and place him in the Garden (where God would dwell with him).

Would man be complete without needing a spiritual birth?

Was the Fall one step in God's creation process, like a seed that must fall to the ground (so that Christ would be the Firstborn among many brethern)?

What if God never decided to create anything? Would that not have meant just the trinity period forever?

 

[JesusFan]

Ah...OK.

Christ is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world", which is before the Fall.

I guess if Adam did not sin by eating that fruit then he would have sined in some other way (Adam was not created as a glorified being, he fell short of God's glory).

But it seems that Christ's identity was firmly established prior to Adam's sin.

So the answer has to be that man's action did not dictate Christ's identity.

The Cross of Christ was decreed before the fall even had occurred, as the trinity was not surprised by it, not scrambling to find a solution to it

 

[37818]

.

The Cross of Christ was decreed before the fall even had occurred, . . . .

What was written and to have been spoken before the fall?

 

[Ben1445]

Except for the fact that we're told certain things about Him, one of which is that the Son's priesthood has no beginning of days, nor end of life. And every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: - Hebrews 5:1

Though God cannot be charged with unrighteousness, the Fall was part of His plan to exalt His Son. NOT because of His foreknowledge of sin, but because of who the Son is. It wasn't a contingency plan.

If an idyllic existence in a garden paradise where no sin or death ever entered was ever a possible outcome, then Christ's priesthood was conditional, not eternal, as we are clearly told that it is.

The world was made so the Son could offer His body as a sacrifice for sins. Mankind was destined to Fall, many were destined to be saved from that fall. And it was all for the sake of Christ.

Even the title, Christ, would not be His, if He were not a Redeemer.

Priests offer gifts. Do you only give gifts to your wife when you have to apologize?
There could have been a very different outcome. If I can imagine it, God can imagine it better.
But this is wishful thinking at best. We already know where we are. And it isn’t going to change.

 

[Ben1445]

The Cross of Christ was decreed before the fall even had occurred, as the trinity was not surprised by it, not scrambling to find a solution to it

But if the fall was decreed, as some have said, there is no such thing as a “solution.” The word has no meaning anymore. It’s just the next sequence in a simulation. There would be no real value to circumstances.

 

[JonC]

But if the fall was decreed, as some have said, there is no such thing as a “solution.” The word has no meaning anymore. It’s just the next sequence in a simulation. There would be no real value to circumstances.

More than that - if the Fall was decreed (in that God ultimately caused the Fall, was the Source of Adam sinning) then Jesus is not a Savior (He was just the solution to a problem God created).

That said, the Fall could certainly have been predestined to occur and God created the circumstance in which Adam would sin (man falls short of God's glory, God took Adam and placed him in the Garden, in His presence, knowing Adam would choose the desires of the flesh as Adam was flesh).