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Whom I am chief.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Brother Bob, Nov 30, 2007.

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  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Everyone on here knows this is the truth. Not on BB, but everyone.

    BBob
     
    #21 Brother Bob, Nov 30, 2007
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Allen, I use the word "was" to tie Paul with who the passage was speaking of, "the lost". I shouldn't have changed the word, for it takes us away from the answer of the passage. I agree with most of what you are saying. I think, sometimes I have a hard time understanding just what you are saying, I read it over and over and the more I read it, the more I see we agree. So I apologize for my lacking, but changed the word to put the emphasis on who Christ came to save, and that is who Paul said he was chief of. He was not saying he was still the greatest sinner of the world, but was taking his whole life into the saying "of whom I am chief".

    BBob,
     
    #22 Brother Bob, Nov 30, 2007
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    BBob, it was this quote...
    Scripture is silent on what sins Paul committed (maybe his thorn in the flesh?), but Scripture is also clear that Paul considered himself the chief of sinners...not that he used to be the chief of sinners.
     
    #23 webdog, Nov 30, 2007
  4. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Web; I know you have been in discussions on here where some have used this scripture to justify that Christians commit chief sins. I know you have seen all the Pastors on TV, who ran off with a young woman, use it.

    This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Timothy 1:15)

    Scripture is silent because Paul was speaking of his entire life, which included before he was saved.
    The scripture is saying "Christ came to save sinners", Paul said of whom I am chief. Well those sinners were the unsaved that Paul was chief sinner of. That is what the passage says. It is who Christ came to save of whom Paul is chief.

    If Paul was a terrible sinner, the scriptures would of told us and Christ would of denied him. IMO

    BBob,
     
    #24 Brother Bob, Nov 30, 2007
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    This pretty well explains what I believe about Tim: 1:15

    Paul felt the exceeding sinfulness of his sin. He classifies himself as the chief or first or foremost of all sinners. When you stop to look at Paul prior to his conversion you don't see a drunk, or a fornicator. You see a religious man, with strict adherence to the law. Phil. 3:4-6 enumerates some of his character (as an unregenerate man) and frankly he would be called a "good man" according to the standards of his day. (see also Acts 26:4-5) Concerning his morals, he was a straight arrow. But the Lord Jesus Christ changed his life. After realizing what he had done to the Christians, he hangs his head and remembers the persecution, injury and destruction he placed upon men and women of the faith. He then calls himself "chief" of all the sinners in the world that Christ came to die for.


    http://bhardecker.blogspot.com/

    http://www.mtziononline.org/

    BBob,
     
    #25 Brother Bob, Nov 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2007
  6. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    The OP does not say this and you have made a false accusation.

    BBob,
     
    #26 Brother Bob, Nov 30, 2007
  7. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    I believe Paul's 'thorn in the flesh' was Alexander the Coppersmith who 'did me much evil,' for Paul declares that the 'thorn in the flesh was 'a messenger of satan to buffet me.'


    As to 1 Timothy 1:15, I have no qualms in saying Paul was speaking of himself in the present tense when he stated 'Christ came to save sinners, of whom I am chief.'

    Paul clearly stated in Romans 7 that 'the evil that I would not, that I do.' Paul struggled with the flesh often, maybe more often than others, for he later stated that he had to keep his body 'under subjection,' which implies a constant struggle.

    Paul, in his first epistle to Timothy, was admitting that even though he was saved, he struggled with and often gave in to the sinful flesh.
     
    #27 standingfirminChrist, Nov 30, 2007
  8. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Well, you can say that, but that is not what the scripture says.

    This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Timothy 1:15)

    He is saying that he is chief of the unsaved sinners whom Christ came to save. Paul was already saved when he wrote the passage.

    This is what Paul said:

    Paul felt the exceeding sinfulness of his sin. He classifies himself as the chief or first or foremost of all sinners. When you stop to look at Paul prior to his conversion you don't see a drunk, or a fornicator. You see a religious man, with strict adherence to the law. Phil. 3:4-6 enumerates some of his character (as an unregenerate man) and frankly he would be called a "good man" according to the standards of his day. (see also Acts 26:4-5) Concerning his morals, he was a straight arrow. But the Lord Jesus Christ changed his life. After realizing what he had done to the Christians, he hangs his head and remembers the persecution, injury and destruction he placed upon men and women of the faith. He then calls himself "chief" of all the sinners in the world that Christ came to die for.


    BBob,
     
    #28 Brother Bob, Nov 30, 2007
  9. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    In all of Paul's epistles, Paul uses the word 'was' 132 times in total. He also uses this term in the first chapter of his first epistle to Timothy.

    1 Timothy 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

    1 Timothy 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

    In verse 15, if he was referring to his past character, why not use the word 'was' instead of the word 'am'?

    Careful examination of Paul's admission of the warring of his flesh with the spirit shows that he did sin, so the word 'am' is indeed speaking of present tense and not past tense.
     
    #29 standingfirminChrist, Nov 30, 2007
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Luk 5:32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    At the time he wrote the passage was he a sinner or a righteous man??

    I agree that no doubt he sinned, but more than anyone else at that time? Was he the greatest sinner around at that time? If so, what was his sins?

    By the Grace of God, I am what I am.

    Was Paul unsaved at that time, for that is who he is talking about.

    BBob,
     
    #30 Brother Bob, Nov 30, 2007
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  11. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    He was a sinner. As we all are.

    Just because one gets saved does not mean he is no longer a sinner. Paul struggled with sin often after his Damascus Road experience.

    I am sorry you cannot see this.

    Paul recognized himself in the present as 'chief of sinners.'
     
    #31 standingfirminChrist, Nov 30, 2007
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2007
  12. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Who said I can not see that. I am saying that is not what this passage says, he is talking about who Christ came to save, the lost and sinners, of whom I am chief. He is saying he is the chief sinner of those who have not been saved yet.

    This preacher of the Mt. Zion Baptist Church of PA. has it right:

    Paul felt the exceeding sinfulness of his sin. He classifies himself as the chief or first or foremost of all sinners. When you stop to look at Paul prior to his conversion you don't see a drunk, or a fornicator. You see a religious man, with strict adherence to the law. Phil. 3:4-6 enumerates some of his character (as an unregenerate man) and frankly he would be called a "good man" according to the standards of his day. (see also Acts 26:4-5) Concerning his morals, he was a straight arrow. But the Lord Jesus Christ changed his life. After realizing what he had done to the Christians, he hangs his head and remembers the persecution, injury and destruction he placed upon men and women of the faith. He then calls himself "chief" of all the sinners in the world that Christ came to die for.


    BBob,
     
    #32 Brother Bob, Nov 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2007
  13. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    If Paul was speaking of his past life in verse 15, he would have used the word 'was' as he did in verse 11 and 13. Do you think he suddenly had a lapse of memory and forgot that three-letter word just moments after writing it and chose the word 'am' to mean 'was'?

    I don't.
     
    #33 standingfirminChrist, Nov 30, 2007
  14. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    No, I think Paul was considering his whole life and how he had persecuted the church of God and by God's Grace, he was saved. He would not of used "was" if he was talking of his whole life.

    BBob,
     
    #34 Brother Bob, Nov 30, 2007
  15. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    If what you say is true, that he was considering his past life, he would have used the word 'was' and not the word 'am'.
     
    #35 standingfirminChrist, Nov 30, 2007
  16. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Not if he was considering his whole life and how God's Grace had saved him. I can see myself feeling the same way.

    Anyway, he was talking about the past, for Christ had already come and gone.

    Everyone is baseing their answers on one single word "am", instead of looking deep enough to see what and who Paul was comparing himself to.

    BBob,
     
    #36 Brother Bob, Nov 30, 2007
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  17. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    Wrong! He was considering his current life.

    He had previously written 'Reckon ye yourselves dead unto sin, but alive unto Christ.

    Paul was not referring to the old man in verse 15 of 1 Timothy 1. He referred to the old man in the previous verses, but when talking about himself in verse 15, he was speaking of the present. The old man was dead.
     
    #37 standingfirminChrist, Nov 30, 2007
  18. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    So, he was comparing himself to all the saved around him. That is not what the scripture says.
    The scripture says: Christ Jesus came to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

    How come it does not say: Christ Jesus came and saved us sinners, of whom I am chief???

    Paul plainly is comparing himself to the sinners before salvation.

    Sorry you can't see that.

    BBob,
     
    #38 Brother Bob, Nov 30, 2007
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  19. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    Bob, I am typing this out slowly for you...

    Of whom I am... not of whom I was. Paul, in his present saved state, was the chief of sinners. Present, Bob... not past.
     
    #39 standingfirminChrist, Nov 30, 2007
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Don't be cute now, I understand every word you type. Slow or fast.

    Again, why did it not say Christ Jesus came and saved us sinners, of whom I am chief????

    BBob,
     
    #40 Brother Bob, Nov 30, 2007
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