Whom I am chief.

[Brother Bob]

The problem with relying on the teaching of those who were once the leaders of the church is that they are not 100% infallible. They have made errors, and no man should trust in the teachings and doctrines of one man or many men.

Spurgeon is a great man, but, he was subject to error like all of us. I read and study these great men, but, I also realize that they make mistakes. ONLY God is infallible, thus, I will allow His word to lead me. As for the interpretation of the Chief of sinners, I'd have to say that Paul was showing to his followers that he, at one time was the most hideous of sinners that ever lived, and if God could save him, well, He can save any one of us, and forgive any sin known to man.

Shalom,

Pastor Paul

Amen Pastor Paul, you got it just right and exactly how some of us has been stating it, and I agree they were fallible men, same as we but Spurgeon had it the same as you have.

BBob,

 

[EdSutton]

Your daughter is still in High School at 44? Wow! that in itself is a record, Bob. You must be awfully proud of her.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Ed

At least we can humor each other this way, for you quack me us some times Mr. Ed.

You got a fly problem there though, drag yourself over the grass.............

 

[EdSutton]

From the one who now thinks Barry Bonds is the greatest hitter of all time, because he surpassed Hank Aaron in career home runs in the NL and AL ???? Just wonderin! [Smilie Snipped!]

Mr. Ed is getting smarter all the time......

Two things- Are you sure Barry Bonds has hit more HR than has Hank Aaron? Read my above post, carefully, before answering that. I think that probably is not the case, at least in professional baseball. Think about what I just said.

And second, I will have to ask that you not refer to me as Mr. Ed, for the sake of my own integrity. I recently called one to task, who did not know me anywhere near well enough to call me Mr. Ed (as he meant it in a 'digging' manner), and I will and now do ask that all observe the same standard, in this. (It is also one reason I use the full 'posting name' of all posters when I address them, including a couple of personal friends and one of my own former pastors.) It is not that I even particularly care in the least, where some are concerned, but I do not want to appear to have a double standard for any. You can call me about anything you wish, to my face, but please, not on the Baptist Board.

On the Baptist Board, please call me Ed, or EdSutton, as these are the two ways I identify myself, and not late for dinner.

Thanks,

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Two things- Are you sure Barry Bonds has hit more HR than has Hank Aaron? Read my above post, carefully, before answering that. I think that probably is not the case, at least in professional baseball. Think about what I just said.

And second, I will have to ask that you not refer to me as Mr. Ed, for the sake of my own integrity. I recently called one to task, who did not know me anywhere near well enough to call me Mr. Ed (as he meant it in a 'digging' manner), and I will and now do ask that all observe the same standard, in this. (It is also one reason I use the full 'posting name' of all posters when I address them, including a couple of personal friends and one of my own former pastors.) It is not that I even particularly care in the least, where some are concerned, but I do not want to appear to have a double standard for any. You can call me about anything you wish, to my face, but please, not on the Baptist Board.

On the Baptist Board, please call me Ed, or EdSutton, as these are the two ways I identify myself, and not late for dinner.

Thanks,

Ed

I apologize Ed Sutton and will grant your request with as much humbleness as possible. As far as Bonds, you brought him up, not me, so you can best answer that.

BBob,

 

[EdSutton]

I apologize Ed Sutton and will grant your request with as much humbleness as possible. As far as Bonds, you brought him up, not me, so you can best answer that.

BBob,

No apology is necessary, by any stretch. I just want to appear consistent on that, as I have with another poster. Had I not had to bring it up with him, you would not have heard one word, for as I said, I do not find it offensive, per se, from most, and that certainly includes you. I'm sure you can fully undertstand and appreciate this part, as a long time pastor, yourself. Sometimes you simply have to do something, that you'd really prefer not to have to do, simply to treat all equal, in that sense. Just as I'm sure you well know that "you can't play favorites" from the pulpit, without having it eventually come back to "bite you".

I'll get back to Bonds and Aaron, after church, sometime.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

No apology is necessary, by any stretch. I just want to appear consistent on that, as I have with another poster. Had I not had to bring it up with him, you would not have heard one word, for as I said, I do not find it offensive, per se, from most, and that certainly includes you. I'm sure you can fully undertstand and appreciate this part, as a long time pastor, yourself. Sometimes you simply have to do something, that you'd really prefer not to have to do, simply to treat all equal, in that sense. Just as I'm sure you well know that "you can't play favorites" from the pulpit, without having it eventually come back to "bite you".

I'll get back to Bonds and Aaron, after church, sometime.

Ed

No problem at all.

 

[webdog]

I will try another analogy to see if I can better explain what I mean. Paul called himself the chief sinner, as a title. it would be like Emmitt Smith saying I am the leading rusher in the history of the NFL. But wait his is not playing, he is retired, how can he say I am? Because it is a title he holds, as the greatest (chief) rusher. Paul was the chief sinner, because at the time when the Gospel was in it's the early stages of being spread, he was a persecutor of the brethren, he blasphemed the Lord. He wanted to crush the very Gospel of Jesus from existence. He was claiming his title as chief sinner, for which he was.

While this analogy sounds good, I think it's wrong, and I'll tell you why. When Emmitt retired, he could no longer play football. His yardaged accumulation came to an end because he could not physically compete any longer.

As you know, we will NOT stop sinning EVER in our current state, therefore Paul is stating emphatically that he knows this. He was a sinner and knew it.

Your analogy would have been better if it was Emmit smith saying "I am the rushing leader" in the game he broke the record, while still continuting to play for another year.

 

[Steven2006]

While this analogy sounds good, I think it's wrong, and I'll tell you why. When Emmitt retired, he could no longer play football. His yardaged accumulation came to an end because he could not physically compete any longer.

As you know, we will NOT stop sinning EVER in our current state, therefore Paul is stating emphatically that he knows this. He was a sinner and knew it.

Your analogy would have been better if it was Emmit smith saying "I am the rushing leader" in the game he broke the record, while still continuting to play for another year.

The point is how someone would correctly use the phrasing, "I am", while currently no longer being active in something, and it make sense. If Emmitt is talking about his title, he would say, "I am "the all-time rushing leader. He wouldn't say, I was, it would be ridiculous for him to do so. That was my point. I think Paul saw himself as the Chief of all sinners, a a title, earned by what he had done. He was explaining, that I, the chief of sinners, was saved, and forgiven, so, can all of you.

 

[webdog]

The point is how someone would correctly use the phrasing, "I am", while currently no longer being active in something, and it make sense. If Emmitt is talking about his title, he would say, "I am "the all-time rushing leader. He wouldn't say, I was, it would be ridiculous for him to do so. That was my point. I think Paul saw himself as the Chief of all sinners, a a title, earned by what he had done. He was explaining, that I, the chief of sinners, was saved, and forgiven, so, can all of you.

Thanks. I understood what you were getting at, but I see Paul's statment as his admittance what he did in the past, ON TOP of his current outlook of himself as a sinner. If it was only his life in the past, I believe he would have clarified it. I think we all to some extent see ourselves in this same light...not by what sins we used to commit, but those we still struggle with.

 

[Steven2006]

Thanks. I understood what you were getting at, but I see Paul's statment as his admittance what he did in the past, ON TOP of his current outlook of himself as a sinner. If it was only his life in the past, I believe he would have clarified it. I think we all to some extent see ourselves in this same light...not by what sins we used to commit, but those we still struggle with.

I don't believe we lead a sinless life, far from it, so I don't want to give that impression. If you go back in this thread and read my post, I also think that was how Paul viewed himself, but because of sins prior to salvation. If one thinks that Paul's was then currently the greatest practicing sinner, and then read his writings, it makes little sense.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

It only makes little sense to those who can't grasp the fact that Paul had to beat his body daily to keep it under subjection because the evil he would not as a saved person, he found himself doing anyway.

Paul stated 'of whom I am chief' because he knew of his constant and ongoing battle with sinful flesh.

 

[Brother Bob]

It only makes little sense to those who can't grasp the fact that Paul had to beat his body daily to keep it under subjection because the evil he would not as a saved person, he found himself doing anyway.

Paul stated 'of whom I am chief' because he knew of his constant and ongoing battle with sinful flesh.

It makes no sense at all that Apostle Paul would say that he was present time committing chief of sins. That is just plain foolish and is not what Paul said. The whole passage was about salvation and Apostle Paul was speaking of his salvation and if God saved him, he could save any sinner.

Seems to me its time you came up to the plate and say you are wrong, present time. Now if you were the wrongest person who ever lived and was not wrong for a while, you could still say, I am the "wrongest person", because you would hold the record, not that I am saying you do, but you could. That is what Paul did........

BBob,

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Paul did not say Christ came to free us from sin, of which I commit the chief sins...

He said Christ came to save sinners, of whom I am chief.


There is a difference, Bob.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Seems to me its time you came up to the plate and say you are wrong, present time.

Ok, Bob... you are wrong

Now if you were the wrongest person who ever lived and was not wrong for a while, you could still say, I am the "wrongest person", because you would hold the record, not that I am saying you do, but you could.

Bob... check your dictionary... there is no such word as 'wrongest'.

That is what Paul did........

Ok, Bob... you are wrong.

 

[Steven2006]

It only makes little sense to those who can't grasp the fact that Paul had to beat his body daily to keep it under subjection because the evil he would not as a saved person, he found himself doing anyway.

Paul stated 'of whom I am chief' because he knew of his constant and ongoing battle with sinful flesh.

Please tell me how these would make sense if Paul was sinng greater than those he is talking about? Why would they not then put away Paul?

1Cr 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.
1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
1Cr 5:13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Ok, Steven... you are wrong.

Hey, just taking Bob's advice.

 

[Brother Bob]

Ok, Bob... you are wrong



Bob... check your dictionary... there is no such word as 'wrongest'.




Ok, Bob... you are wrong.

Rom 6:12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

But me personally, I can committ all manner of sin, even unto the chief sinner. (Apostle Paul, the hypocrit if true)

Rom 6:13Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

But me personally, I can committ all manner of sin, even unto the chief sinner. (Apostle Paul, the hypocrit if true)


What a doctrine to say one of the apostles were present time the greatest sinner of all time, while teaching all the churches not to sin and neither lend their members to sin. Man, looks like some would use their heads, and realize that would make Paul the chiefest of hypocrits present time.

BBob,

 

[Steven2006]

Ok, Steven... you are wrong.

Hey, just taking Bob's advice.

I would like a serious answer. While your at it here is another one.

Phl 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern.

How or why would Paul be telling them to follow his example as a pattern for how to walk, if Paul was sinning much more than they were? It just makes no sense.

 

[EdSutton]

No problem at all.

Back to Henry Aaron and Barry Bonds:

In HRs in the National and American Leagues of American Professional baseball, Bonds (currently) stands as #1 with 762 HR; Aaron is #2 in that list with 755.

Pretty clear cut, no??

Uh - not so fast! I did say "professional baseball". (You know I would not give one away that easy.)

Both played in the "minor leagues" for two years. Bonds hit 20 HR there in a year and a half; Aaron hit 31 HR in the minors in 2 years.

Aaron 786; Bonds 782. Hmmm!

In addition, Aaron played one year (1952) with the Indianapolis Clowns of the Negro League, and helped them to win the 1952 Negro League World Series, as well as a few years in the Caribbean playing "winter ball". AS these were "professional leagues" as well, I suspect his career HR total is well over 800, putting him right up alongside Japan's Sadaharu Oh (Japan Leagues), and the late Josh Gibson (Negro Leagues) for 'career HR' as a professional.

OTOH, Bonds hit 44 HR in 4 years as a collegian at ASU, including helping them win a college WS. So I'd say the question is, and will always remain 'open" as to who is/was the best HR hitter ever, up 'til now.? And does the late, great Babe Ruth now drop a couple of notches?? :laugh: :laugh:

Ed