What a primitive understanding of Baptist
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Why Baptists are not Protestant
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
No, as its Rome who denies the real Gospel!
Landmark Baptist believe that the Baptist movement can be traced, unbroken, back to the Apostolic age. I disagree with that.
Drifter
New Member
I would say a good definition of a Protestant Christian is someone who accepts the Five Solae. If that defines the fundamental teachings of Protestantism, I think we can say that the Baptist tradition is Protestant.
It's interesting that this view of history, which is retold at the drop of a hat, seldom mentions the persecution of proto-Baptists by other Protestants. It seems to me that the Baptist tradition has a somewhat uneasy relationship with the Reformation.
It's interesting that this view of history, which is retold at the drop of a hat, seldom mentions the persecution of proto-Baptists by other Protestants. It seems to me that the Baptist tradition has a somewhat uneasy relationship with the Reformation.
Then prove your assessment
EWF:
I would like to apologize for the tone and insensitivity in which I responded to your posts over the last few days. It was uncalled for and I can certainly disagree with your positions without the attitude.
I truly enjoyed listening to the acapella singing in the video and watching the youngster who assisted the worship leader. I attended a Maronite Catholic Church in Utica, New York in which the entire liturgy (except the sermon & announcements) were sung without musical instruments.
I have a question regarding Primitive Baptist fellowships. I learned a long time back that using Wikipedia is often a quick way to be mislead, so I went to various websites of Baptist churches identifying as 'Primitive Baptist'. It seemed-to me the common denominator was Calvinistic teaching, although the use of the word 'Calvinism' was rare. Would I be correct in concluding that Primitive Baptists believe in limited or 'particular' atonement?
Also, if I do a search for Primitive Baptist in Roseburg, Oregon, First Landmark Missionary Baptist church is what pops up. Given the disagreements over missions back when Baptists in southern states began to identify themselves as 'Primitive Baptists', when I attended California Baptist University (back in the Stone Age,) I remember several members of Ministerial Alliance referring to Primitive Baptists as being 'Hardshell' and they were not using it to mean 'pig-headed' but my sense was that they were using it to mean uncompromising. Would that be accurate?
I would like to apologize for the tone and insensitivity in which I responded to your posts over the last few days. It was uncalled for and I can certainly disagree with your positions without the attitude.
I truly enjoyed listening to the acapella singing in the video and watching the youngster who assisted the worship leader. I attended a Maronite Catholic Church in Utica, New York in which the entire liturgy (except the sermon & announcements) were sung without musical instruments.
I have a question regarding Primitive Baptist fellowships. I learned a long time back that using Wikipedia is often a quick way to be mislead, so I went to various websites of Baptist churches identifying as 'Primitive Baptist'. It seemed-to me the common denominator was Calvinistic teaching, although the use of the word 'Calvinism' was rare. Would I be correct in concluding that Primitive Baptists believe in limited or 'particular' atonement?
Also, if I do a search for Primitive Baptist in Roseburg, Oregon, First Landmark Missionary Baptist church is what pops up. Given the disagreements over missions back when Baptists in southern states began to identify themselves as 'Primitive Baptists', when I attended California Baptist University (back in the Stone Age,) I remember several members of Ministerial Alliance referring to Primitive Baptists as being 'Hardshell' and they were not using it to mean 'pig-headed' but my sense was that they were using it to mean uncompromising. Would that be accurate?
Yea, I wasn’t acting all that nice in my responses either so I apologize.
Look regarding to primitive Baptist questions, a fellow PB who posts on here who is really a wonderful person and lifelong Elder in the church named Tyndall is who you should be speaking to... he lives in California and I believe you are located in Oregon so your in the same time zone. Hope that helps! Be well.
Baptist theology and ecclesiology did not exist in the Apostolic or Patristic age. Credobaptism existed but it was not the center of a larger theology. Do some study on the Patristics and early church history. Recommended reading on this topic is Baptism in the Early Church by H.F. Stander and J.P. Louw as well as Early Christian Doctrine by J.N.D. Kelly.
What is the root of Christianity anyway? When did the true Christian church begin & what were the principles used to create it?
personally I don’t feel that Baptist’s need to be lumped into any system of worship other than their own... therefore any links to Protestants is not required...
(most were infant baptisers anyway... a no no for Baptist’s).
I also don’t see any agenda by Baptists to kill there opponents.
seperation of church and state along with priesthood of believers is another tenant of Baptists... don’t see that amongst your garden variety of Protestants.
Baptist’s believe in a regenerated church membership.
So my opinion is we have never been connected in any way to Protestants.
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Did not the early Church though practice pastors/elders/deacons set us as we do as Baptists. and would have seen salvation as saved by grace alone thru faith alone in Christ, and had believers water baptism?
While some Baptists may not identify as Protestant, a good portion of Baptists and Protestants aren't Christians in the first place. Jesus warned, tares would reside in the Church to the end. We'll always have false believers among us.
True Christians, however, will acknowledge the reforms of the protestant movement, and identify with the protest of catholic soteriology. They may not identify with particular reformers, but the reforms in general are going to be precious to any true Christian. The 5 solas, for instance. If they don't, it may be a sign they're not Christians at all, or very theologically immature.
All that said, reformation is a continual process. The reformers weren't perfect, and got some things wrong, infant baptism, strange communion beliefs, etc.
True Christians, however, will acknowledge the reforms of the protestant movement, and identify with the protest of catholic soteriology. They may not identify with particular reformers, but the reforms in general are going to be precious to any true Christian. The 5 solas, for instance. If they don't, it may be a sign they're not Christians at all, or very theologically immature.
All that said, reformation is a continual process. The reformers weren't perfect, and got some things wrong, infant baptism, strange communion beliefs, etc.
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I believe the complete church of Jesus Christ exists in seven congregations..
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1
Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry
Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals seal each congregation within the lambs book of life
And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4
If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado?
As far as Baptist....
1. None are Messianic
2. Maybe a few Martyr
3. None are Orthodox
4. Definitely not Catholic
5. Many are Protestant Sardisean - The name cannot be blotted out!
6. Many tied into the Philadelphia church
7. Many are affected by the spirit of Laodicea
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1
Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry
Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals seal each congregation within the lambs book of life
And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4
If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado?
As far as Baptist....
1. None are Messianic
2. Maybe a few Martyr
3. None are Orthodox
4. Definitely not Catholic
5. Many are Protestant Sardisean - The name cannot be blotted out!
6. Many tied into the Philadelphia church
7. Many are affected by the spirit of Laodicea
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Well these are distinctive that Baptist’s subscribe to but some prods also have. Baptism though.... I mean Credo (Believers Baptism) is something quite unique. Also a clear preference toward New Testament Christianity I would consider a distinctive.... we don’t have the propensity to be legalistic. Rather we are dependent on scripture for guidance.
Hmm... I rather like this exercise to define Baptist distinctives. It reminds me why I have so painstakingly chosen to be Baptistic.
And that’s largely resolved by organizing Baptist’ Churches to focus on
a regenerated church membership
Can you prove that historically? see otherwise the nay sayers will endeavor to lump you into a Protestant category.
My own opinion for what it’s worth is that the Baptist movement has always been radically different from other religious societies, and that is why I’ve outlined our distinctive. First let’s examine the word Radical which comes from the Latin word for root I.E., Radix.
A radical is one who moves away from the everyday goings on of an common place established institution and goes back to the source, the fundamentals... and this is very different from established traditional organizations who will do some reforms but not make significant changes....but the radical will go back, far far back to ask the questions that undercuts all self interest, ideologies and institutions. Questions like what is God doing on earth, what was Christ teaching us by both sermons & actions, what are the important take aways etc. This all serves , yesterday & today to create a unique and transformative church society that strikes at the root of the tree in order to serve the lord in His kingdom.
A radical is one who moves away from the everyday goings on of an common place established institution and goes back to the source, the fundamentals... and this is very different from established traditional organizations who will do some reforms but not make significant changes....but the radical will go back, far far back to ask the questions that undercuts all self interest, ideologies and institutions. Questions like what is God doing on earth, what was Christ teaching us by both sermons & actions, what are the important take aways etc. This all serves , yesterday & today to create a unique and transformative church society that strikes at the root of the tree in order to serve the lord in His kingdom.
Mr. Webster states:
1Protestant
a: any of a group of German princes and cities presenting a defense of freedom of conscience against an edict of the Diet of Speyer in 1529 intended to suppress the Lutheran movement
b: a member of any of several church denominations denying the universal authority of the Pope and affirming the Reformation principles of justification by faith alone, the priesthood of all believers, and the primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truthbroadly : a Christian not of a Catholic or Eastern church
2: one who makes or enters a protest
First Known Use of protestant
Noun
1539, in the meaning defined at sense 1a
Adjective
1539, in the meaning defined at sense 1
History and Etymology for protestant
Noun
Middle French, from Latin protestant-, protestans, present participle of protestari
1Protestant
a: any of a group of German princes and cities presenting a defense of freedom of conscience against an edict of the Diet of Speyer in 1529 intended to suppress the Lutheran movement
b: a member of any of several church denominations denying the universal authority of the Pope and affirming the Reformation principles of justification by faith alone, the priesthood of all believers, and the primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truthbroadly : a Christian not of a Catholic or Eastern church
2: one who makes or enters a protest
First Known Use of protestant
Noun
1539, in the meaning defined at sense 1a
Adjective
1539, in the meaning defined at sense 1
History and Etymology for protestant
Noun
Middle French, from Latin protestant-, protestans, present participle of protestari
- So basically a Protestant protested the Roman Catholic Church - specifically Mr. Luther.I do believe that there have always have been churches which have not strayed from the truth. I am not advocating that those churches were Baptist in name or fully in current Bapt beliefs. I would like to note that some things that Baptist do- are not necessarily doctrine. (ie: communion on the First Sunday)
- However - on the other side of the coin - Rogers Williams, an Anglican minster did start a Baptist church, which apparently was the first one in North America. Apparently, he never actually became a Baptist - rather just agreed with the beliefs -Believers Baptism, sep Church & State, ect. However, he later left - became a seeker