Why Calvinism preaches a fraudulent gospel to some of the lost.

[Reformed1689]

There is a difference between out of context and from a context like Matthew 4:4 from Deuteronomy 8:3 and many more examples.

1 Timothy 2:6 in ". . . For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. . . ."

And verse one of that chapter shows that is not talking about all individuals, but rather, all types of people.

 

[1689Dave]

Mark 16:15, ". . . Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
The Calvinist view point of Limited Atonement means for those who never believe the good news it was never really good news because, Limited Atonement means Christ never really died for them that never would believe, and that is why they do not believe.

After giving it some thought, your entire rant is based on a misunderstanding of the gospel. In essence, you believe faith merits salvation. But scripture teaches that salvation produces faith. That is, God must save you before you can have faith and this is consistent with limited atonement.

 

[37818]

And verse one of that chapter shows that is not talking about all individuals, but rather, all types of people.

You are wrong, in that, it can be explictly understood to mean individuals. God is not saving people as groups but as indivuduals.

1 Timothy 2:1 in ". . . Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. . . ."

 

[Reformed1689]

You are wrong, in that, it can be explictly understood to mean individuals. God is not saving people as groups but as indivuduals.

1 Timothy 2:1 in ". . . Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. . . ."

That doesn't align with the rest of Scripture. Sorry you are simply incorrect.

 

[Dave G]

The Calvinist view point of Limited Atonement means for those who never believe the good news it was never really good news because, Limited Atonement means Christ never really died for them that never would believe, and that is why they do not believe.

I see that the Gospel today is preached differently from the way Peter, Paul and the Lord Jesus preached it.

Paul, for example, never preached the good news ( what's contained in the epistles ) and the meat of the Gospel to the masses.
He preached exactly as Acts of the Apostles 17:22-30 depicts...
That we as men are sinners, and that He has appointed a day that He will judge mankind by His Son, who rose again and that we as men should repent in the face of this.

Simple facts with no embellishment and no advertisement of any of the rest of what God has reserved for those that He has saved...
What is contained in the epistles.

God's election, predestination, calling, justification, sanctification and many other precious truths.

 

[Dave G]

The Bible teaches that God is sovereign and in His sovereignty He decided that man will choose to either respond to the gospel and receive it or reject it.

I see nowhere in all of the Bible that it is described that way.
But I do see how, in a few places and isolated from much of the rest of what the Lord has to say, that it could work that way.

Let me ask you, do you also accuse the receiver of a birthday gift of being at least partly responsible for giving himself the birthday gift simply because he reached out and took it from the giver and took possession of it?

As in other threads where this was discussed, Mark:

In what I have come to understand as your view, the gift is actively received by the act of accepting it.
Therefore, God is offering it with the express intent of attaching a condition to it in order for us as men to get it from Him.
He then bases His salvation of an individual on what the individual does ( reaches out and accepts it ) and possesses ( the wisdom, strength, or will to accept it ), thereby making Him a respecter of persons... and not on His own totally-uninfluenced-by-the-decisions-of-men choice to grant mercy and compassion on someone strictly because of His kindness.

Of course you know where I stand and I do not view salvation as a reward, which is how I see you describing it;
I view it as a gift that is given with no strings attached and is passively received because of God giving it to one, and withholding it from another based on His mercy and grace alone, and on nothing that we do, say, or desire.

Please see Romans 9:6-24.

That said:
Not to reply for him ( which I cannot ), but, yes, I would say ( if asked ) that if the term "gift" as seen in Romans 6:23, for example, is defined in the "active" way, then the person is responsible for giving it to himself or herself...
Primarily because they performed an act that, in reality, functions as merit to gain it... instead of them having it dropped into their laps, totally unexpected and fully without merit.

Election as described in Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9, Ephesians 1:3-6, Ephesians 2:8-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Psalms 65:4, John 6:37-47, John 6:64-65, John 17:2 and many other places, is the only thing that I see that completely bypasses merit and preserves Romans 11:5-6, Romans 4:4 and Ephesians 2:9...
and truly defines salvation and eternal life as gifts.


May God, in His grace, bless you with many of them.

 

[37818]

That

That what? Specify.

doesn't align with the rest of Scripture.

How? Specify each by giving every specific.

Sorry you are simply incorrect.

Your Ad Hominem is illogical.

 

[37818]

I see that the Gospel today is preached differently from the way Peter, Paul and the Lord Jesus preached it.

Paul, for example, never preached the good news ( what's contained in the epistles ) and the meat of the Gospel to the masses.
He preached exactly as Acts of the Apostles 17:22-30 depicts...
That we as men are sinners, and that He has appointed a day that He will judge mankind by His Son, who rose again and that we as men should repent in the face of this.

Simple facts with no embellishment and no advertisement of any of the rest of what God has reserved for those that He has saved...
What is contained in the epistles.

God's election, predestination, calling, justification, sanctification and many other precious truths.

Claims without presenting it's evidence.
Therefore false claims.

 

[Revmitchell]

I see nowhere in all of the Bible that it is described that way.
But I do see how, in a few places and isolated from much of the rest of what the Lord has to say, that it could work that way.

As in other threads where this was discussed, Mark:

In what I have come to understand as your view, the gift is actively received by the act of accepting it.
Therefore, God is offering it with the express intent of attaching a condition to it in order for us as men to get it from Him.
He then bases His salvation of an individual on what the individual does ( reaches out and accepts it ) and possesses ( the wisdom, strength, or will to accept it ), thereby making Him a respecter of persons... and not on His own totally-uninfluenced-by-the-decisions-of-men choice to grant mercy and compassion on someone strictly because of His kindness.

Of course you know where I stand and I do not view salvation as a reward, which is how I see you describing it;
I view it as a gift that is given with no strings attached and is passively received because of God giving it to one, and withholding it from another based on His mercy and grace alone, and on nothing that we do, say, or desire.

Please see Romans 9:6-24.

That said:
Not to reply for him ( which I cannot ), but, yes, I would say ( if asked ) that if the term "gift" as seen in Romans 6:23, for example, is defined in the "active" way, then the person is responsible for giving it to himself or herself...
Primarily because they performed an act that, in reality, functions as merit to gain it... instead of them having it dropped into their laps, totally unexpected and fully without merit.

Election as described in Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9, Ephesians 1:3-6, Ephesians 2:8-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Psalms 65:4, John 6:37-47, John 6:64-65, John 17:2 and many other places, is the only thing that I see that completely bypasses merit and preserves Romans 11:5-6, Romans 4:4 and Ephesians 2:9...
and truly defines salvation and eternal life as gifts.


May God, in His grace, bless you with many of them.

I never said he bases His salvation based on what an individual does. That’s a spin on what He does but not reality.

again do we ever give credit for the giving to the receiver of the gift just because the receiver of the gift accepts it? It’s not done and it’s not logical. The basis is His grace. Regardless if the needed response of man by His design the basis begins and ends there. Man’s response has nothing to do with His basis.

 

[Iconoclast]

So if your view of Gods' sovereignty is correct then the only reason that man has a sin nature is because God gave it to them. And the only reason some reject God is because He does not allow them the ability to come to Him and thus be saved.
You do realize that you are destroying the character of God by your theology.

Another blame God for mans sin post.

 

[1689Dave]

You are wrong, in that, it can be explictly understood to mean individuals. God is not saving people as groups but as indivuduals.

1 Timothy 2:1 in ". . . Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. . . ."

All men = Jews, and gentiles.

 

[Reformed1689]

Claims without presenting it's evidence.
Therefore false claims.

show me where in the New Testament you see the disciples preaching a free gift of salvation. You do not find that. What you see is them preaching repentance. And following God. That is the gospel that salvation is available to those who believe. Those who believe are the elect. Therefore, it is not a fraudulent gospel. It is fact to say that those who believe will be saved. Because those who believe are elected.

 

[1689Dave]

What we have is a straw man misrepresentation of the gospel being attacked by someone who does not understand the true gospel. To preach the gospel means to "announce it" to all. Those who are born again will respond through baptism and repentance. It would be dishonest to "offer" salvation which makes the responder the savior of their own selves.

 

[37818]

[

show me where in the New Testament you see the disciples preaching a free gift of salvation.

No examples. So therefore what? Salvation is not really a gift?

What you see is them preaching repentance.

Acts 2:38, ". . . Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. . . ."

Acts 3:19, ". . . Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; . . ."

Acts 5:31, ". . . Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. . . ."

Acts 8:22, ". . . Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. . . ."

Acts 11:18, ". . . When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. . . ."

Acts 13:24, ". . . When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. . . ."

Acts 17:30, ". . . And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: . . ."

Acts 19:4, ". . . Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. . . ."

Acts 20:21, ". . . Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ."

Acts 26:21, ". . . But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. . . ."

And to what point regarding the issue of the thread? Not everyone who hears the gospel change their minds. To deny Christ died for them too is error.

That is the gospel that salvation is available to those who believe. Those who believe are the elect. Therefore, it is not a fraudulent gospel. It is fact to say that those who believe will be saved. Because those who believe are elected.

And the non-elect Christ died for them too or else to include them in Christ's death is a fraud.

 

[1689Dave]

Mark 16:15, ". . . Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
The Calvinist view point of Limited Atonement means for those who never believe the good news it was never really good news because, Limited Atonement means Christ never really died for them that never would believe, and that is why they do not believe.

In his High Priestly Prayer, Jesus did not pray for the salvation of all. He told the Father “I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.” John 17:9 (ESV). Why would Jesus die for any he was unwilling to pray for?

 

[canadyjd]

…..
again do we ever give credit for the giving to the receiver of the gift just because the receiver of the gift accepts it? It’s not done and it’s not logical…..

I do understand your point. But I want to ask a question. Does the person receiving the gift recognize it as a gift?

Suppose you have a drug addict and their father wants to give them the free gift of 90 days of treatment at rehab facility. Does the addict think it’s a gift? Most of the time they don’t see it as a gift.

The same with sinners. They don’t see the salvation found in the gospel as a free gift. It comes with strings attached. They must give up their addictions to sin. Their lives must change and they don’t think their lives need to change, just like the drug addict blinded by their addiction.

If the father can change the addict’s mindset, to help them understand the value of the treatment, then they will see the offer as a gift.

God must change us so that we are capable of understanding the gift that has been offered and to respond with faith in Christ.

That is unmerited favor. That is grace.

peace to you

 

[Revmitchell]

I do understand your point. But I want to ask a question. Does the person receiving the gift recognize it as a gift?

Suppose you have a drug addict and their father wants to give them the free gift of 90 days of treatment at rehab facility. Does the addict think it’s a gift? Most of the time they don’t see it as a gift.

The same with sinners. They don’t see the salvation found in the gospel as a free gift. It comes with strings attached. They must give up their addictions to sin. Their lives must change and they don’t think their lives need to change, just like the drug addict blinded by their addiction.

If the father can change the addict’s mindset, to help them understand the value of the treatment, then they will see the offer as a gift.

God must change us so that we are capable of understanding the gift that has been offered and to respond with faith in Christ.

That is unmerited favor. That is grace.

peace to you

Please answer my question first.

 

[Reformed1689]

Not

[
No examples. So therefore what? Salvation is not really a gift?


Acts 2:38, ". . . Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. . . ."

Acts 3:19, ". . . Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; . . ."

Acts 5:31, ". . . Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. . . ."

Acts 8:22, ". . . Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. . . ."

Acts 11:18, ". . . When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. . . ."

Acts 13:24, ". . . When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. . . ."

Acts 17:30, ". . . And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: . . ."

Acts 19:4, ". . . Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. . . ."

Acts 20:21, ". . . Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ."

Acts 26:21, ". . . But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. . . ."

And to what point regarding the issue of the thread? Not everyone who hears the gospel change their minds. To deny Christ died for them too is error.


And the non-elect Christ died for them too or else to include them in Christ's death is a fraud.

Salvation is not the gift.

 

[1689Dave]

Mark 16:15, ". . . Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
The Calvinist view point of Limited Atonement means for those who never believe the good news it was never really good news because, Limited Atonement means Christ never really died for them that never would believe, and that is why they do not believe.

“Although Jesus had performed so many miraculous signs before them, they still refused to believe in him, so that the word of Isaiah the prophet would be fulfilled. He said, “Lord, who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”For this reason they could not believe, because again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their heart, and turn to me, and I would heal them.”” (John 12:37–40)

Why would God blind them so they would perish, if as you think, Christ died for them?

 

[1689Dave]

“How much more severe a punishment do you suppose he deserves, who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded the blood of the covenant that sanctified him to be a common thing, [meant for all] and has insulted the Spirit of grace?” Hebrews 10:29 (MEV)