I have never....and I mean never encountered a mean spirited and uncivil Old School Baptist. Rather they work hard to be polite and Christlike. Would that they were closer because then I would be an involved churchgoer.
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Why Church doesn't fit most people
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I'm sorry we got our wires crossed... I wasn't talking about those in your neck of the woods but PB brethren I have associated with in the past and now and none else... Brother Glen
True Bro. James. Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church. This statement means that they (gates of hell) are GOING TO TRY.
What we are seeing is the attempt of the tares (Matthew 13:children of the devil) to prevail. God even saves some tares (IMO) on occasion.
HankD
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I'm sorry Hank. Who are you referring to as tares?
No one in particular brother, especially here at the BB.
RE: Matthew 13:
But the children of the devil have been sown among the children of God here on earth. See the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13.
Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
HankD
I view the teaching to speak of the Church's assault on the "gates of Hell," though I have heard that this term was a metaphor for death, meaning that death does not negate that which God has done and is doing in the lives of believers. Either way, I see it as speaking of going forward, rather than the gates of Hell approaching us.
The question is will tares know they are tares? There are those who will cry out to the Lord and give many reasons why they thought they belonged to Christ, Who will say "I never knew you," denying that a relationship ever existed.
Even false teachers who believe they are in relationship with God and sincerely believe they are combatting false doctrine might run under a delusion of relationship.
Then we balance that with the teaching of the many and the few. Tares are indiscernible until harvest, where their true nature is revealed.
Got into quite the debate with someone once for taking this view, but I look at, again, the issue of tares being indiscernible balanced with God's power to convert. As long as a tare is a tare, though, they are not genuine believers. I look at it as all of us begin as tares from birth, but practically speaking we must recognize that in the Church there are going to be those posing, whether consciously or not, as true believers...who are not.
God bless.
John 20:24-29New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Appears to Thomas
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
I see this as Christ reaching out to a brother in distress. How many of us use logic to determine our own belief systems ...... then Christ crashes in and confronts us.....because he is never going to let us go.
Then that becomes our charge.....to reach out and touch the flesh, to recognize that hidden Christ in our brethren....and to be patient with it....but most of all to believe that he is there.
Jesus Appears to Thomas
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
I see this as Christ reaching out to a brother in distress. How many of us use logic to determine our own belief systems ...... then Christ crashes in and confronts us.....because he is never going to let us go.
Then that becomes our charge.....to reach out and touch the flesh, to recognize that hidden Christ in our brethren....and to be patient with it....but most of all to believe that he is there.
That's why I talked about Matthew 13 in which two of the parables given definitely show that the devil himself "snatches" away the word (and he has several tactics for that strategy) from the hearers (Parable of the 4 soils) and further infiltrates Christendom with "tares" as another tactic. In addition the phrase "gates of hell" is metaphorical.
In Jesus day large cities had an entry gate where sojourners would come through. At this gate they were met by Military, Religious, Political and financial (money changers) personnel to discern if said sojourners would be allowed to enter or whether they would be a risk.
So, IMO, "the gates of hell" (or gates of any domain) metaphorically represent the power and authority of that domain.
However I hadn't heard the view you presented and is well taken. Thanks.
I have wondered this myself and have come to the conclusion that there are those who know they are the devil's workers and those who don't (and everything in between).
Satan will supply whatever maximum deception he can to hinder the gospel to both society and individuals.
. It is indeed probably a rare thing that once a commitment to evil is made (some, a few of) these "tares" will be eventually saved. But with God his purposes often time will bewilder us...
HankD
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That is cause we think from the position of a logical man....kinda like Thomas who traveled with the Lord but then did not believe in him as Savior....foolish man but since Tom was chosen, he would not fall outa favor but rather be redeemed as many times as necessary. Put your fingers in my wounds (if that's what it takes to convince you Thomas) & now 'Believe'.
How in today's world do we Christians rank the unbeliever.....how are they viewed.....are they lost? Certainly not the ones selected by the Father & died for as the sacrifice for their sins by the Son.
I don't see this as Christ "reaching out," but Christ directly confronting unbelief.
When it comes to individual belief systems, I think ascribing logic is over-stating it, because many rely on their emotions and personal desire of belief. Using logic, or reason, is not something that Scripture teaches as a bad thing. We are to engage our minds, rather than willingly accept that which is presented as wisdom.
Faith is not a mental disconnect.
And I see nowhere in Scripture where our faith is to be hidden, but the opposite, that our light should shine for others to see.
While I can agree we are to be compassionate, particularly on those who have a fault, whatever that may be, we are to restore that brother, not coddle him. Sometimes the truths that evade us do so only because we are not using logic and reason.
Christ did not approach Thomas as a brother, but as the Risen Lord. It was Thomas that needed to recognize the truth. This is why, for those who do not, as Thomas, have to have physical reassurance, those who believe without seeing are blessed.
We cannot equate our own ministries and efforts with those of Christ. Again, the relationship between the unbelieving Thomas and Christ was Lord and servant. Our relationships with each other are on an equal plane, which should motivate us to help our brother when he falls into trouble, knowing it is but by the grace of God that we ourselves might not be viewed as being in such straights.
God bless.
The simple reason why Thomas was an unbeliever is that he was not yet Baptized with the Holy Ghost. None of the disciples were. So we can understand why Thomas was in unbelief.
It has nothing to do with logic or reason, which impacts believer and unbeliever alike, and can be successfully employed by both. But when it comes to understanding the spiritual things of God, man is dependent on the enlightening ministry of the Holy Spirit, whether saved or unsaved. Now, when we interact, those truths revealed to us can be conveyed with, or without...a logical basis.
In regards to the unbeliever's rank, we are to view them in one of the two categories we have, which all men can be cast is: saved, and unsaved.
Unfortunately, because we know we are saved we create another category ranking, good and evil. The fact is that even atheists can be seen to do what from a temporal perspective could be called good, and in no way be considered evil. But from an eternal perspective, we still have not, and never will attain to a standard which replicates God. We will never be as righteous or Holy.
Our own "rank" should stand as a testimony to the grace of God, rather than something to beat others over the head with. If we have no concern for the lost, we do not have the mind of Christ.
If we elevate ourselves over the lost, then we glorify the wrong person.
We have much to be thankful for, but we should keep in mind that our down-fallings can sometimes be more heinous than those of the lost. We are held to a higher standard of judgment...because we should know better.
And, I would throw in, my friend, if we keep that in mind when we consider the Body of Christ, no matter the denomination, our own humility should create compassion for our fellow believer, whose path is much harder than that of the lost. Ignorance is bliss, it is said, and that is why we have a more realistic understanding of the world and Man. And that is what the Holy Spirit does in our lives, first and foremost: points out to us our own sin, rather than the sin of others. And as we recognize sin in our lives, compassion for others is increased.
At least that is how I see it.
Gotta go,
God bless.
You bring to mind a picture of ourselves going into the world. Truly I believe a parallel between the world and the Gates of Hell can be reasonably drawn. That is the battlefront, after all, in temporal terms, which does not deny the spiritual plane we strive on.
God bless.
I was thinking last night that after I meet with someone who is lost and I speak to him about Christ and he responds favorably, then what do I do.....and my answer is what I did with Chuck. Chuck was lost, going through a divorse, drinking heavy, going to strip club's Yada, yada, yada ...... so I bought him a Bible that also pointed out Alcoholic Ananomous (sic) steps and met with him weekly to go over Bible verses. Chuck eventually started going to some big behemoth mega church all on his own....I didn't have to take him....but I did take him to my house a coupla of times for dinner and conversation and to meet my wife who also is a recovering alcoholic.
So to conclude, I don't have to take them to church....it would be nice but the so called churches around me are so void of any real theology and spirituality that its probably better to just invite them over for coffee and Bible .....ive got some chickens and a skillit and can make some wicked eggs any way you like them.....then there is the bacon! :godisgood:
So to conclude, I don't have to take them to church....it would be nice but the so called churches around me are so void of any real theology and spirituality that its probably better to just invite them over for coffee and Bible .....ive got some chickens and a skillit and can make some wicked eggs any way you like them.....then there is the bacon! :godisgood:
Do you think your friend is making a mistake?
Does your wife attend a fellowship?
God bless.
What do you mean making a mistake? And no my wife does not attend a fellowship. Not since they told her that our child is in hell, then implied we put him there for living a sinful life. Would you want to be around those people after that?
What kind of church told you such a thing?
A Presbyterian one.....the Orthodox kind. Nice huh!?! And that clinched it! The dark pallor over my wives view on church in general still has not lifted. It has taken me years (with the help of the HS) to get her back on track.
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My wife feels the same way, has for a long time.
Thats cause they want to be loved and inturn express their love. While my wife is church adverse, she totally loves the lord.....funny how a bad church can sour you but the Love of Christ continues on.
Let me tell you about my friend Darrell. 1st his ex wife & her family never truly accepted Chuck.....he wasn't a Catholic or an Italian from New Jersey....he is a Texan and a Marine & so there was always criticisms. He also wasn't as educated which bothered the in laws. The wife took up with interrational affairs & the in-laws blamed him for it. Bad fit Bad fit....but I counseled him to patch things up with the wife....after all the Lord hated divorce. And for a time Chuck tried but she wasn't having it. They divorced & he got partial custody of their two daughters. Both of who just got married last month in a joint wedding. Chuck is also remarried & practices his Faith & has a new job that pays him better. So I don't understand the "Mistake question?"
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