Why Confession?

[Cathode]

No. You changed God's Word. Paul's words in the passage are God's words.

You seem to think that minor changes are OK. They are not.

And it's not my KJV. I'm not Anglican, and it isn't my preferred translation.

What version are you using that says we are to punish ourselves after we sin?

Certainly not Paul's words. He speaks of discipline, subduing, mortification, so that he will not sin.

We are talking about Confession and penance (doing penance after one has sinned, like repentance).

Paul speaks of trying not to sin.

There is a big difference.

The Paul imposed the temporal punishment of expulsion on the guy.

Then he lifted the expulsion punishment so that the guy didn’t suffer excessive sorrow.

Clear cut case of penance/ temporal punishment being imposed.

Anyone can read it for all time in scripture.

It’s sitting there like a Matzo

 

[Oseas3]

I didn’t change God’s Word, I quoted it, even your KJV.
It’s a clear cut case in Scripture.

But you do like the Devil also did, making reference to the Word of GOD to deceive the woman. So I also am writting, that we might unmask Satan, lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

 

[Oseas3]

The Paul imposed the temporal punishment of expulsion on the guy.

Then he lifted the expulsion punishment so that the guy didn’t suffer excessive sorrow.

Clear cut case of penance/ temporal punishment being imposed.

Anyone can read it for all time in scripture.

It’s sitting there like a Matzo

Your thinking is from a human and demonic perspective, A STUMBLING BLOCK, not from GOD's perspective.

 

[JonC]

The Paul imposed the temporal punishment of expulsion on the guy.

Then he lifted the expulsion punishment so that the guy didn’t suffer excessive sorrow.

Clear cut case of penance/ temporal punishment being imposed.

Anyone can read it for all time in scripture.

It’s sitting there like a Matzo

No, not penance. Penance is self inflicted temporal punishment done after one sins. It is a type of repentance.

You are wrong.

The reason is you hold a doctrine and then ho to the Bible to try and justify that doctrine. Insodoing you bear false witness of God.

Here is the passage you claim teaches penance:

But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Furthermore, when I came to Troas to preach Christ’s gospel, and a door was opened unto me of the Lord, I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia. Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.


In the end you testify falsely about God by effectively altering His Word to try and justify a heresy.

 

[Cathode]

No, not penance. Penance is self inflicted temporal punishment done after one sins. It is a type of repentance.

You are wrong.

The reason is you hold a doctrine and then ho to the Bible to try and justify that doctrine. Insodoing you bear false witness of God.

Here is the passage you claim teaches penance:

But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Furthermore, when I came to Troas to preach Christ’s gospel, and a door was opened unto me of the Lord, I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia. Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.


In the end you testify falsely about God by effectively altering His Word to try and justify a heresy.

Paul is telling them to judge those inside the Church, and to expel the guy as punishment.

“What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

Then lifted the temporal punishment of expulsion. Re-admittance.

“The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient. 7 Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.”

So the plain understanding of scripture is clear and evident.

Penance was imposed, totally biblical.

 

[JonC]

Paul is telling them to judge those inside the Church, and to expel the guy as punishment.

Have you ever actually read the Bible? I don't mean thumbing through to try and snip passages you think you can make support your faith. Have you, for example, actually read the entire passage that contains the verse you are twisting by taking it out of context?

I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Obviously Paul is not talking about punishing a man who sins. He is talking about the congregation being a holy people. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

He is not telling these Christians to punish the sinner but to remove the sinner (and the sin) from the congregation.


There is no actual biblical support for penance. You have bounced back and forward between two books trying to extract some verse to support heresy. This is your third failed attempt.

 

[Cathode]

Have you ever actually read the Bible? I don't mean thumbing through to try and snip passages you think you can make support your faith. Have you, for example, actually read the entire passage that contains the verse you are twisting by taking it out of context?

I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Obviously Paul is not talking about punishing a man who sins. He is talking about the congregation being a holy people. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

He is not telling these Christians to punish the sinner but to remove the sinner (and the sin) from the congregation.


There is no actual biblical support for penance. You have bounced back and forward between two books trying to extract some verse to support heresy. This is your third failed attempt.

“The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient.”

It’s plain as day. This is not a mortification he inflicted on himself.

Like I said, it’s sitting there like a matzo.

 

[JonC]

“The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient.”

It’s plain as day. This is not a mortification he inflicted on himself.

Like I said, it’s sitting there like a matzo.

Read the context. What was Paul saying?

This IS NOT penance. When you punish a child for disobedience the child is NOT doing penance (you are just punishing the child).


Since you seem unaware (or, perhaps trying to misleading others about the Catholic faith) I'll explain.

The Roman Catholic Church considers penance to be a "sacrament". Catholics seek absolution for a sin (or sins) from a priest (yes, this is pagan). Then they perform penance. Penance is a sacrament because it is thought to be a means of obtaining grace after sin. (See the Council of Trent).


Penance is not the congregation causing a man grief. Penance is not a congregation kicking out a wicked man from the congregation.

Penance is self-punishment to "obtain grace" after one has sinned.

And Penance is a heresy.

 

[Cathode]

Read the context. What was Paul saying?

This IS NOT penance. When you punish a child for disobedience the child is NOT doing penance (you are just punishing the child).


Since you seem unaware (or, perhaps trying to misleading others about the Catholic faith) I'll explain.

The Roman Catholic Church considers penance to be a "sacrament". Catholics seek absolution for a sin (or sins) from a priest (yes, this is pagan). Then they perform penance. Penance is a sacrament because it is thought to be a means of obtaining grace after sin. (See the Council of Trent).


Penance is not the congregation causing a man grief. Penance is not a congregation kicking out a wicked man from the congregation.

Penance is self-punishment to "obtain grace" after one has sinned.

And Penance is a heresy.

The sacrament of Penance is Confession, or Reconciliation.

A priest can impose any penance he deems necessary, after confession.

In Paul’s case he imposed expulsion as a penance but lifted the expulsion when sufficient contrition was expressed.

Penance is temporal punishment imposed by the bishop or elder.

This is a clear cut case from scripture.

Clear cut.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Read the context. What was Paul saying?

This IS NOT penance. When you punish a child for disobedience the child is NOT doing penance (you are just punishing the child).


Since you seem unaware (or, perhaps trying to misleading others about the Catholic faith) I'll explain.

The Roman Catholic Church considers penance to be a "sacrament". Catholics seek absolution for a sin (or sins) from a priest (yes, this is pagan). Then they perform penance. Penance is a sacrament because it is thought to be a means of obtaining grace after sin. (See the Council of Trent).


Penance is not the congregation causing a man grief. Penance is not a congregation kicking out a wicked man from the congregation.

Penance is self-punishment to "obtain grace" after one has sinned.

And Penance is a heresy.

Ahh, you are learning Jon! Perhaps you are Irish after all…

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The sacrament of Penance is Confession, or Reconciliation.

A priest can impose any penance he deems necessary, after confession.

In Paul’s case he imposed expulsion as a penance but lifted the expulsion when sufficient contrition was expressed.

Penance is temporal punishment imposed by the bishop or elder.

This is a clear cut case from scripture.

Clear cut.

Prove it.

 

[JonC]

Ahh, you are learning Jon! Perhaps you are Irish after all…

10th generation Irish.

 

[JonC]

The sacrament of Penance is Confession, or Reconciliation.

A priest can impose any penance he deems necessary, after confession.

In Paul’s case he imposed expulsion as a penance but lifted the expulsion when sufficient contrition was expressed.

Penance is temporal punishment imposed by the bishop or elder.

This is a clear cut case from scripture.

Clear cut.

Not per Roman Catholic doctrine (confession is a part of the sacrament). And Scripture never advocates confession (confessing in private to a priest).

 

[Cathode]

Not per Roman Catholic doctrine (confession is a part of the sacrament). And Scripture never advocates confession (confessing in private to a priest).

Public congregational confession was a practice of the early Church, but the Church changed this so that people would not be fearful of public embarrassment.
It was enough to confess to the bishops and elders, the importance being that people confess and be forgiven.

This is a perfect case of penance being imposed and of Paul’s binding on earth, and Jesus in heaven holding that the man was forgiven.

It fits perfectly with Catholic teaching and understandings.

I think you are just being contrarian Jon for the sake of it, any plain reading of scripture shows the the Catholic position correct.

Clear cut case, honestly.

 

[Cathode]

Prove it.

Scripture proves it.

The whole incident is a classic case of penance being imposed then lifted and Apostolic Judgement being made before heaven, declaring the guy forgiven.

Fits perfectly with Catholic teaching and understanding.

 

[JonC]

Public congregational confession was a practice of the early Church, but the Church changed this so that people would not be fearful of public embarrassment.
It was enough to confess to the bishops and elders, the importance being that people confess and be forgiven.

This is a perfect case of penance being imposed and of Paul’s binding on earth, and Jesus in heaven holding that the man was forgiven.

It fits perfectly with Catholic teaching and understandings.

I think you are just being contrarian Jon for the sake of it, any plain reading of scripture shows the the Catholic position correct.

Clear cut case, honestly.

Do you know why public congressional confession was practiced?

It was because it is commanded by God. We are to confess our sins before man, accountable to the congregation. The readon is accountability (not only personal accountability but accountability of the congregation). If one continues in that sin as observed and confronted by a member then he is confronted, and if it continues he is confronted by several, and if he continues he is brought before the congregation.

The Catholic Church usurped God in the issue if confession.

Penance, however, is a sacrament through which grace is supposedly obtained. It is completely unbiblical.

BUT that is fine for Catholics because they do not look to God's Word as the criteria by which doctrine is tested. They look to the Cathokic Church. That is why there can be no agreement between Christian churches and Catholics (they hold different authorities).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

10th generation Irish.

Catholic?

 

[Cathode]

Do you know why public congressional confession was practiced?

It was because it is commanded by God. We are to confess our sins before man, accountable to the congregation. The readon is accountability (not only personal accountability but accountability of the congregation). If one continues in that sin as observed and confronted by a member then he is confronted, and if it continues he is confronted by several, and if he continues he is brought before the congregation.

The Catholic Church usurped God in the issue if confession.

Penance, however, is a sacrament through which grace is supposedly obtained. It is completely unbiblical.

BUT that is fine for Catholics because they do not look to God's Word as the criteria by which doctrine is tested. They look to the Cathokic Church. That is why there can be no agreement between Christian churches and Catholics (they hold different authorities).

You are getting terms mixed up, the sacrament of penance is the sacrament of Confession.

This sacrament imposes a penance, a temporal punishment of sorts as part of contrition.
This is what we see here with Paul and this character.

Plain to see in Scripture.

 

[JonC]

Catholic?

No. Protestant side. Farmers.

 

[JonC]

You are getting terms mixed up, the sacrament of penance is the sacrament of Confession.

This sacrament imposes a penance, a temporal punishment of sorts as part of contrition.
This is what we see here with Paul and this character.

Plain to see in Scripture.

Odd. The Catechism of the Catholic Church must have mislabeled that one.

"The sacrament of Penance is a whole consisting in three actions of the penitent and the priest's absolution. The penitent acts are repentance, confession or disclosure of sins to the priest, and the intention to make reparation and do works of reparation."


This is found nowhere in the Bible.

Biblically when you sin you confess to the congregation. You repent (turn from those sins), and you are forgiven.