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Why did Christ say he would draw all men to himself.

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Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Guido said:
God intervenes in the lives of all people,
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24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Ro 1:24–27.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Guido said:
And the free will given by him to all people, he will not override to save anyone.
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44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Jn 6:44.

15.212 σύρωa; ἕλκωa; σπάομαι: to pull or drag, requiring force because of the inertia of the object being dragged—‘to pull, to drag, to draw
Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 207.
 
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Guido

Active Member
Reformed1689 said:
No it is not the same thing. One means that there will be both Jews and Gentiles among the elect, the other means all Jews and Gentiles are among the elect. Are you a universalist?
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No, but all who choose freely to believe in Jesus, they are the ones who become born again, whether they are Jews, or whether they are Gentiles.

It doesn't seem like Calvinism makes a difference, because regardless of whether Election is true, "And whosoever will...." The only problem is: Can you be saved with faith in conformity to limited atonement?
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Guido said:
No, but all who choose freely to believe in Jesus, they are the ones who become born again, whether they are Jews, or whether they are Gentiles.
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And who, on their own unaltered free will does this?

9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Ro 3:9–12.
 
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canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Guido said:
All men without distinction between Jew and Gentile is the same as all men without exception. Eeither one is a Jew, or one is a Gentile; otherwise one is not human.
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Well, no it isn’t. To say all men without distinction simply means there will be Gentiles in the Kingdom of God. That is the context of John 12:32. It cannot mean “all men without exception”, since Jesus had already told some of the Pharisees they did not believe Him because they were not of His sheep.

Additionally, 1 Corinthians 1, makes it clear the gospel is necessary for salvation. Hundreds of millions, and probably billions, of people have lived and died never hearing the gospel or even the name of Jesus.

peace to you
 
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AustinC

Well-Known Member
Guido said:
No, but all who choose freely to believe in Jesus, they are the ones who become born again, whether they are Jews, or whether they are Gentiles.

It doesn't seem like Calvinism makes a difference, because regardless of whether Election is true, "And whosoever will...." The only problem is: Can you be saved with faith in conformity to limited atonement?
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Do you think faith is innate within all men, at physical birth or is faith given to men at salvation as a gift from God?
 
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Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Guido said:
SNIP
The Bible states plainly that after his ascension, the Lord Jesus Christ would draw to himself all men. (John 12:32 KJV)

By this it is evident that TULIP is faulty, for if all men are drawn to Christ at this time, then the Holy Ghost is moving on all. And wherefore moves he upon all people, if there are some who are chosen by him who alone receive their souls' regeneration?
SNIP
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John 12:32-33
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.” Now He was saying this to indicate what kind of death He was going to die.

1) This was said before Christ died and before He ascended.
2) Calvinist deny the word translated "draw" is used metaphorically to indicate attract. They falsely claim the word means irresistible drag. So they insert into the text, "will draw all kinds of people."
3) "All" refers to all of what the author has in view, thus here all those who understand that Christ was crucified as a sacrifice for them, will be attracted by His lovingkindness.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Van said:
John 12:32-33
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.” Now He was saying this to indicate what kind of death He was going to die.

1) This was said before Christ died and before He ascended.
2) Calvinist deny the word translated "draw" is used metaphorically to indicate attract. They falsely claim the word means irresistible drag. So they insert into the text, "will draw all kinds of people."
3) "All" refers to all of what the author has in view, thus here all those who understand that Christ was crucified as a sacrifice for them, will be attracted by His lovingkindness.
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Your 3 is WRONG
 
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Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
SavedByGrace said:
Your 3 is WRONG
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If you have more than "taint so" it would require that you post content rather than personal incredulity.

3) "All" refers to all of what the author has in view, thus here all those who understand that Christ was crucified as a sacrifice for them, will be attracted by His lovingkindness.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Van said:
If you have more than "taint so" it would require that you post content rather than personal incredulity.

3) "All" refers to all of what the author has in view, thus here all those who understand that Christ was crucified as a sacrifice for them, will be attracted by His lovingkindness.
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That is NOT what John 3.16 says
 
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Van

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Site Supporter
SavedByGrace said:
That is NOT what John 3.16 says
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Yes it is. By that I mean John 3:16 does not conflict with John 12:32-33. To be attracted by His lovingkindness does not always result in placing our full faith and devotion upon Christ. See the second and third soils of Matthew 13.
 
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tyndale1946

Well-Known Member
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AustinC said:
Do you think faith is innate within all men, at physical birth or is faith given to men at salvation as a gift from God?
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Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

The whole Adamic race of mankind according to David, is born the same way... Then God intervenes alone!... Brother Glen:)
 
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