Why did Christ say he would draw all men to himself.

[AustinC]

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

The whole Adamic race of mankind according to David, is born the same way... Then God intervenes alone!... Brother Glen

This doesn't answer the question at all.
Here's the question:
Do you think faith is innate within all men, at physical birth or is faith given to men at salvation as a gift from God?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

The whole Adamic race of mankind according to David, is born the same way... Then God intervenes alone!... Brother Glen

Give ONE reason why God would choose you and damn your neighbour

 

[AustinC]

Give ONE reason why God would choose you and damn your neighbour

He should justly damn us all. There is no reason from a human perspective for why God chooses anyone.
Why did God choose Noah and leave every other family to perish?
Why did God choose Abraham and not a tribal person in the Amazon rainforest?
Why did God choose Jacob and not Esau?

There is only one answer.
God has mercy on whom he wills and he hardens whom he wills.

sbg, your questions are thinly veiled accusations against God and you are clueless what you are doing when you ask this question.

 

[Iconoclast]

Biblically no

If you were shown that it can mean something other than all people ever born would you then believe it and stop with this objection

 

[SavedByGrace]

If you were shown that it can mean something other than all people ever born would you then believe it and stop with this objection

you can try, but I know that you will not be able to!

 

[JD731]

What you are proclaiming is contrary to sound doctrine. You claim sin is removed at Christ’s “reconciliation” when He died in the cross for all people.

However, all people, now sinless and reconciled to God are not yet saved until they “agree to the terms of reconciliation and turn from the offensive behavior”.

What you are saying is contrary to 2000 years of church doctrine, imo.

peace to you

You did not attempt to explain the conflict you have with the wrath of God on sinners and the statements I quoted from scripture. I quoted a passage that says that God was propitiated for the sins of the whole world by the sacrifice of his sinless Son, who was willing to endure the penalty for our sins in a one time offering of himself on the cross for that purpose. This answers to the topic of the op concerning Jesus drawing all men to himself IF he was lifted up. In 2 Corinthians 5, I quoted the apostle saying that God is not imputing personal sins to sinners while they live because the sin problem had been dealt with at the cross where Jesus had been lifted up.

Imagine one coming to God for forgiveness of his sins if Jesus had not been lifted up. A sinner would not have any basis for his appeal for forgiveness when God had declared that a sinner must die for his sins. But, if he said someone else who did not have the sentence of death upon him had been willing to die as his substitute, then there could be no charge of sin against him because his sentence had already been carried out. The scriptures plainly and clearly declares that is exactly what Jesus Christ did and he was complicit with God the Father, the Judge of all the earth, in accomplishing that for sinners long before the creation of the world.

God is reasonable and logical. There is no reason for God to impute sin to anyone who has had their penalty prosecuted. It is only logical that God would receive a man who came to him claiming he was asking for reconciliation because of the cross of Jesus. It would be the only appeal that God would hear from the sinner. What kind of sense would it make if God was angry at sinners after he said he was satisfied with the payment Jesus made for them? Why would he not receive them and give them his Spirit, which is the life of God and is omnipresent and eternal. Consider that the blood that Jesus shed on the cross will wash away the inherent sin the moment it is applied. (Re 1:5 in the KJV & Titus 3:5)

If sin will continue to separate men from God after the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ, it will not be on God's part but on the sinners part who would refuse to be reconciled to God because he would rather hold on to his sin. The command that God has given after the resurrection of Jesus Christ is for all men to repent. He made this command in Athens, Greece in Acts 17. There is a time that God has reserved when this time of grace to sinners will be over and God will judge men on the earth and destroy all those who have gone their own ways. That time will be when no other sinners will come to God for reconciliation in the name of Jesus Christ.

The doctrine you are preaching is not good news. It is opposite from what God has said about who can be saved and how they are saved.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent. 31 because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You did not attempt to explain the conflict you have with the wrath of God on sinners and the statements I quoted from scripture. I quoted a passage that says that God was propitiated for the sins of the whole world by the sacrifice of his sinless Son, who was willing to endure the penalty for our sins in a one time offering of himself on the cross for that purpose. This answers to the topic of the op concerning Jesus drawing all men to himself IF he was lifted up. In 2 Corinthians 5, I quoted the apostle saying that God is not imputing personal sins to sinners while they live because the sin problem had been dealt with at the cross where Jesus had been lifted up.

Imagine one coming to God for forgiveness of his sins if Jesus had not been lifted up. A sinner would not have any basis for his appeal for forgiveness when God had declared that a sinner must die for his sins. But, if he said someone else who did not have the sentence of death upon him had been willing to die as his substitute, then there could be no charge of sin against him because his sentence had already been carried out. The scriptures plainly and clearly declares that is exactly what Jesus Christ did and he was complicit with God the Father, the Judge of all the earth, in accomplishing that for sinners long before the creation of the world.

God is reasonable and logical. There is no reason for God to impute sin to anyone who has had their penalty prosecuted. It is only logical that God would receive a man who came to him claiming he was asking for reconciliation because of the cross of Jesus. It would be the only appeal that God would hear from the sinner. What kind of sense would it make if God was angry at sinners after he said he was satisfied with the payment Jesus made for them? Why would he not receive them and give them his Spirit, which is the life of God and is omnipresent and eternal. Consider that the blood that Jesus shed on the cross will wash away the inherent sin the moment it is applied. (Re 1:5 in the KJV & Titus 3:5)

If sin will continue to separate men from God after the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ, it will not be on God's part but on the sinners part who would refuse to be reconciled to God because he would rather hold on to his sin. The command that God has given after the resurrection of Jesus Christ is for all men to repent. He made this command in Athens, Greece in Acts 17. There is a time that God has reserved when this time of grace to sinners will be over and God will judge men on the earth and destroy all those who have gone their own ways. That time will be when no other sinners will come to God for reconciliation in the name of Jesus Christ.

The doctrine you are preaching is not good news. It is opposite from what God has said about who can be saved and how they are saved.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent. 31 because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

you will find that the "Reformed" will try to force the plain meaning of Acts 17:30, for only THEM!!!

 

[canadyjd]

You did not attempt to explain the conflict you have with the wrath of God on sinners and the statements I quoted from scripture. I quoted a passage that says that God was propitiated for the sins of the whole world by the sacrifice of his sinless Son, who was willing to endure the penalty for our sins in a one time offering of himself on the cross for that purpose. This answers to the topic of the op concerning Jesus drawing all men to himself IF he was lifted up. In 2 Corinthians 5, I quoted the apostle saying that God is not imputing personal sins to sinners while they live because the sin problem had been dealt with at the cross where Jesus had been lifted up.

Imagine one coming to God for forgiveness of his sins if Jesus had not been lifted up. A sinner would not have any basis for his appeal for forgiveness when God had declared that a sinner must die for his sins. But, if he said someone else who did not have the sentence of death upon him had been willing to die as his substitute, then there could be no charge of sin against him because his sentence had already been carried out. The scriptures plainly and clearly declares that is exactly what Jesus Christ did and he was complicit with God the Father, the Judge of all the earth, in accomplishing that for sinners long before the creation of the world.

God is reasonable and logical. There is no reason for God to impute sin to anyone who has had their penalty prosecuted. It is only logical that God would receive a man who came to him claiming he was asking for reconciliation because of the cross of Jesus. It would be the only appeal that God would hear from the sinner. What kind of sense would it make if God was angry at sinners after he said he was satisfied with the payment Jesus made for them? Why would he not receive them and give them his Spirit, which is the life of God and is omnipresent and eternal. Consider that the blood that Jesus shed on the cross will wash away the inherent sin the moment it is applied. (Re 1:5 in the KJV & Titus 3:5)

If sin will continue to separate men from God after the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ, it will not be on God's part but on the sinners part who would refuse to be reconciled to God because he would rather hold on to his sin. The command that God has given after the resurrection of Jesus Christ is for all men to repent. He made this command in Athens, Greece in Acts 17. There is a time that God has reserved when this time of grace to sinners will be over and God will judge men on the earth and destroy all those who have gone their own ways. That time will be when no other sinners will come to God for reconciliation in the name of Jesus Christ.

The doctrine you are preaching is not good news. It is opposite from what God has said about who can be saved and how they are saved.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent. 31 because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

You have simply posted too much to reply to in this thread. Why not take one passage, look at the context and determine the meaning?

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

….
God is reasonable and logical. There is no reason for God to impute sin to anyone who has had their penalty prosecuted….

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent. 31 because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

So, in the same post you claim “there is no reason for God to impute sin to anyone…” and then quote Acts 17:30 that declares God will, in fact, judge the world for their deeds.

It is a contradiction

peace to you

 

[JD731]

You have simply posted too much to reply to in this thread. Why not take one passage, look at the context and determine the meaning?

peace to you

Nothing gets settled in one liners. It is just arguing. Allow the scriptures to explain why you preach what you do. The stakes are too high to get salvation wrong. Because of the cross we do not have to deal with the wrath of God now because Jesus did it for us. But, there is an end to grace as the operative principle of God's dealing with sinful humanity and there is "wrath to come."

 

[Reformed1689]

you can try, but I know that you will not be able to!

Scholars disagree with you.

 

[Reformed1689]

Because of the cross we do not have to deal with the wrath of God now because Jesus did it for us.

For the elect, yes. Not for the ones who did not have their sins paid for, the non-elect.

 

[canadyjd]

Nothing gets settled in one liners. It is just arguing. Allow the scriptures to explain why you preach what you do. The stakes are too high to get salvation wrong. Because of the cross we do not have to deal with the wrath of God now because Jesus did it for us. But, there is an end to grace as the operative principle of God's dealing with sinful humanity and there is "wrath to come."

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[tyndale1946]

This doesn't answer the question at all.
Here's the question:
Do you think faith is innate within all men, at physical birth or is faith given to men at salvation as a gift from God?

Oh that one?... Brother Glen

2 Thessalonians 1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

 

[JD731]

For the elect, yes. Not for the ones who did not have their sins paid for, the non-elect.

The scriptures I quoted did not say that Jesus put away sins of individuals, the scriptures say he put away sin. 2 Cor 5:21 says For he (God the Father) hath made him (Jesus Christ) to be sin for us who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The operative phrase in the text I quoted is "in him." He is the elect (Isa 42:1 & 1 Pet 2:6) and when and if we are in him we are elect, but not until then.

He 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world (age) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Sin is singular and is not speaking of sins of individuals.

Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

He did not say he is taking away the sins of the elect. He took the sin of the world away and sin is not imputed to individuals while they live and therefore any and all can come in the name of Jesus Christ and have eternal life as a gift of God. God is reconciled to sinners through Christ by choice. Now sinners must be reconciled to God through Christ by choice. When they are then they are elect because they are in Christ and he is elect.

There is no special class of sinners called the elect apart from a union with Christ in God's eyes.

 

[Reformed1689]

The scriptures I quoted did not say that Jesus put away sins of individuals, the scriptures say he put away sin. 2 Cor 5:21 says For he (God the Father) hath made him (Jesus Christ) to be sin for us who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The operative phrase in the text I quoted is "in him." He is the elect (Isa 42:1 & 1 Pet 2:6) and when and if we are in him we are elect, but not until then.

He 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world (age) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Sin is singular and is not speaking of sins of individuals.

Jn 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

He did not say he is taking away the sins of the elect. He took the sin of the world away and sin is not imputed to individuals while they live and therefore any and all can come in the name of Jesus Christ and have eternal life as a gift of God. God is reconciled to sinners through Christ by choice. Now sinners must be reconciled to God through Christ by choice. When they are then they are elect because they are in Christ and he is elect.

There is no special class of sinners called the elect apart from a union with Christ in God's eyes.

You are all over the place in this post.

First, you quote passages that are written to believers. The elect.

Second, you then say sin is singular and not individual sins. Where do you see that as how this whole thing worked? No. Then you say they are not elect until they come to Christ. Two questions: 1, what makes them come to Christ? Remember, nobody seeks God. 2. Deal with Ephesians, we were chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world. That's not at the time we come to Christ.

You are wrong.

 

[tyndale1946]

Give ONE reason why God would choose you and damn your neighbour

I think YOU need to ask God!... I didn't say God damned my neighbor, YOU did!... Brother Glen

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God

This is the first time in all my years on this board I've met a heart reader... Elect!!!... Have you seen the elect of GOD according to scripture?... A handful, a remnant, NO!

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I think YOU need to ask God!... I didn't say God damned my neighbor, YOU did!... Brother Glen

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God

This is the first time in all my years on this board I've met a heart reader... Elect!!!... Have you seen the elect of GOD according to scripture?... A handful, a remnant, NO!

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

What does Romans 9.22 say

 

[AustinC]

I think YOU need to ask God!... I didn't say God damned my neighbor, YOU did!... Brother Glen

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God

This is the first time in all my years on this board I've met a heart reader... Elect!!!... Have you seen the elect of GOD according to scripture?... A handful, a remnant, NO!

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

What does Romans 9.22 say

Do you mean to say you could read all the verses, but not verse 22, even though verse 22 was also quoted? What's your point?

 

[tyndale1946]

What does Romans 9.22 say

That's Gods business, none of mine, the question is what if?... He could have saved everyone?... Why didn't he?... What is amazing is that he saved anyone?... All deserved his WRATH, NONE deserved his love... ... We LOVE him because he first LOVED us!... Quit putting the cart before the horse... Brother Glen

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God