Why did Christ say he would draw all men to himself.

[Reformed1689]

I have no problem with what you quoted but where I see the problem is that you want them given before they believe. The bible says you have to believe before you are saved, would you not agree?

All who are given will come. Given before they come. Hmmmmm

 

[Iconoclast]

I have no problem with what you quoted but where I see the problem is that you want them given before they believe. The bible says you have to believe before you are saved, would you not agree?

No SH.....
God saves sinners. He does not save believers, but ungodly sinners.He grants them saving faith. Jesus came to seek and to save...the LOST.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

 

[Silverhair]

How were they to know God? Romans 1 tells us that it doesn't happen through natural revelation alone. Romans 10:14 asks how they will hear.

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

This was precisely the motivation of every Reformed missionary who agreed with Paul. People will die in their sins if we don't go tell them of Jesus.

Silverhair, history shows you are wrong.

Do you not think the sovereign God has other ways of reaching people? What do you think Rom 1:20 means?
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Man can know God. And man can come to understand the gospel message when it is presented to them. Do you not understand this?

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

This verse alone answers your question.

 

[Silverhair]

strawman

Really you call scripture a "strawman". That says quite a bit about your theology.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't have problems with the Bible. Just your false teaching.

Then why do you hold to the theology you do?

 

[Silverhair]

All who are given will come. Given before they come. Hmmmmm

You still want to hold onto single verses as if they will support your shallow view. The bible is not a book of one liners as you calvinists like to treat it. Just trust the whole teaching of the bible.

 

[Reformed1689]

Really you call scripture a "strawman". That says quite a bit about your theology.

I did not call Scripture a strawman. I called the following a strawman:

Christ saves individuals not people groups.

I never claimed otherwise.

 

[Silverhair]

No SH.....
God saves sinners. He does not save believers, but ungodly sinners.He grants them saving faith. Jesus came to seek and to save...the LOST.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

"He does not save believers" Well since no one is saved until they believe then by your words no one gets saved. WOW you calvinists and your one liners. No wonder most people think you guys are just a tad out of step with reality.

God came to save the lost, true, but they have to believe before they are saved.

You know like it says in
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
and
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
and
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
and
Joh 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
I included the last one so you could see the difference clearly.
believe = everlasting life
not believe = sin abides on them

It really is easy to understand the bible if you just read the text and not try to change it.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't have problems with the Bible. Just your false teaching.

What teaching do you not agree with?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

For God so loved the world, here we see that God loves His creation.
whoever believes in Him should not perish, that must be people, right.
God did not send His Son into the world, here we have Christ being born as a human being.
to condemn the world, What has sinned so as to be condemned?
but that the world through Him might be saved. So what is getting saved?
"He who believes in Him is not condemned. That would be people, right?

So when Christ Jesus says that He will draw all to Himself it is people not people groups He means. Christ saves individuals not people groups.

 

[Reformed1689]

Then why do you hold to the theology you do?

Biblical Theology? Because it is biblical.

 

[Reformed1689]

You still want to hold onto single verses as if they will support your shallow view. The bible is not a book of one liners as you calvinists like to treat it. Just trust the whole teaching of the bible.

Calvinists don't hold to single verses. Another asinine comment.

 

[Silverhair]

I did not call Scripture a strawman. I called the following a strawman:
"Christ saves individuals not people groups."

I never claimed otherwise.

You keep saying that Joh 12:32 can only be meant for people groups, my question is why?

David you wrote this, right.
"However, John 12:32 shows that Jesus is proclaiming that salvation is to both Jew and Gentile. So “all people” in verse 32 means all people groups Jew and Gentile."

I said that Joh 12:32 was meant for people and you disagree so why do you think I would say what I did.

 

[Silverhair]

Biblical Theology? Because it is biblical.

Then why do you deny the clear text of the bible?

 

[Reformed1689]

Then why do you deny the clear text of the bible?

I have not done any such thing.

 

[Reformed1689]

You keep saying that Joh 12:32 can only be meant for people groups, my question is why?

David you wrote this, right.
"However, John 12:32 shows that Jesus is proclaiming that salvation is to both Jew and Gentile. So “all people” in verse 32 means all people groups Jew and Gentile."

I said that Joh 12:32 was meant for people and you disagree so why do you think I would say what I did.

John 12:32 is talking about Jesus has come for both Jew and Greek (Gentile) and not just the Jews. It is not referencing individuals. This is not difficult. I have already exegeted the passage. Scholars agree on this both Calvinist and Non-Calvinist.

 

[Silverhair]

Calvinists don't hold to single verses. Another asinine comment.

Really, well that seems to be the only way you can make your theology work as that is just about all I ever see done on here.

Well other than taking peoples comments out of context.

Dave I have no intention on getting into a peeing contest. You and I will not agree on most things about the bible so we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Iconoclast]

"He does not save believers" Well since no one is saved until they believe then by your words no one gets saved. WOW you calvinists and your one liners. No wonder most people think you guys are just a tad out of step with reality.

God came to save the lost, true, but they have to believe before they are saved.

You know like it says in
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
and
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
and
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
and
Joh 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
I included the last one so you could see the difference clearly.
believe = everlasting life
not believe = sin abides on them

It really is easy to understand the bible if you just read the text and not try to change it.

We believe God saves sinners, sinners do not save themselves. So we do not ignore eph1:3:-11...that describes God moving upon and converting ungodly sinners to conversion to be saints.
Saints do believe, yes.

 

[Silverhair]

John 12:32 is talking about Jesus has come for both Jew and Greek (Gentile) and not just the Jews. It is not referencing individuals. This is not difficult. I have already exegeted the passage. Scholars agree on this both Calvinist and Non-Calvinist.

What I have said before and I will say again. You want to look at single verses while I look at the overall context of the bible. When you focus on single verses you can make the bible say just about anything that you want it to. And that is why I do not do it.

 

[Silverhair]

We believe God saves sinners, sinners do not save themselves. So we do not ignore eph1:3:-11...that describes God moving upon and converting ungodly sinners to conversion to be saints.
Saints do believe, yes.

Don't over look Eph 1:13 as it tells you how those people come to be saints.

 

[Reformed1689]

What I have said before and I will say again. You want to look at single verses while I look at the overall context of the bible. When you focus on single verses you can make the bible say just about anything that you want it to. And that is why I do not do it.

Such a dishonest post. You asked why I said John 12:;32 is talking about Jew and Greek, then you accuse me of focusing on one verse? Good grief.