Why did God create the Universe?

[PastoralMusings]

God is glorified by redeeming sinners. not just creating, He could have created more than the unuverse in Heaven Why the separation of two parts?

But your question related only to why did God create, did it not?
Rom 11:33-36 speaks to both creation and redemption. The answer remains God's glory.
Anything that denies the glory of God as the primary motivation of all the God does is unacceptable and anti-Biblical theology.
SOLI DEO GLORIA

 

[loDebar]

my point was nothng here isnot as glorius and nor glorifying to Him as things in Heaven.

This is a holding place, a prison, for the purpose of redeemption

 

[supersoldier71]

my point was nothng here isnot as glorius and nor glorifying to Him as things in Heaven.

This is a holding place, a prison, for the purpose of redeemption

No.

God created this place and pronounced it "good".

Now there is a line of reasoning that says that for believers this is as close to hell as we're ever going to get, and for the lost, this is as close to heaven as they will ever be.

But this world as a "prison"? I think that concept veers dangerously close to some gnostic concepts and is not a view supported by Scripture.

 

[Darrell C]

We know that Gen 1 creation story does not include Heaven of God's aboad because of Job 38:7 when some beings already existed and reacted with creation . So Why did God create the physical universe if Heaven already existed?

It is just my opinion that the heavens and earth were created specifically to house Man. Man was created for the purpose of fellowship. Not just beings to worship (which is a given, when we understand the Majesty of God), but that there might be a bond created between God and Man. An analogy might be seen in why people like to own dogs. When most people want to get a dog, they don't usually go somewhere and buy a service dog that is fully trained, but they go and get a puppy. They do this despite the fact they know in advance that the pup is likely going to mess on the floor, chew up things that shouldn't be chewed on, make noise at inconvenient times, and maybe even run off from time to time. But they get one anyway. Just as God created man even know He knew in advance that man would make a mess of things. And just as God created this physical realm to house man, even so those who go get a pup often create an abode for the pup. And I would suggest that there is a bond that forms that cannot be equated to buying a service dog, because the pup only knows that one master, and often the pups world revolves around that master, and the bond grows through shared experiences.

So you might say Man is in the doghouse, and despite making a mess of things, God still seeks to have a relationship with him, and seeks for that bond that grows through shared experience to increase.

By the way, welcome to the Forum, IoDebar, I hope your time here is blessed, and that you will be a blessing to those here.


God bless.

 

[Calypsis4]

You preset the problem with current teaching.

There has to be a different explanation that does not fault God

Revelation 4:11
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[loDebar]

It is just my opinion that the heavens and earth were created specifically to house Man. Man was created for the purpose of fellowship. Not just beings to worship (which is a given, when we understand the Majesty of God), but that there might be a bond created between God and Man. An analogy might be seen in why people like to own dogs. When most people want to get a dog, they don't usually go somewhere and buy a service dog that is fully trained, but they go and get a puppy. They do this despite the fact they know in advance that the pup is likely going to mess on the floor, chew up things that shouldn't be chewed on, make noise at inconvenient times, and maybe even run off from time to time. But they get one anyway. Just as God created man even know He knew in advance that man would make a mess of things. And just as God created this physical realm to house man, even so those who go get a pup often create an abode for the pup. And I would suggest that there is a bond that forms that cannot be equated to buying a service dog, because the pup only knows that one master, and often the pups world revolves around that master, and the bond grows through shared experiences.

So you might say Man is in the doghouse, and despite making a mess of things, God still seeks to have a relationship with him, and seeks for that bond that grows through shared experience to increase.

By the way, welcome to the Forum, IoDebar, I hope your time here is blessed, and that you will be a blessing to those here.


God bless.

Thank you
Would it be better for fellowship for me to born in Heaven?

 

[Darrell C]

He can anything, why could he not do that in Heaven, Why the separation?

It would be much like why people do not go get fully trained dogs.

God could have created a robotic race which never sinned, but, what you might consider is that GOd does not create...

...gods.

What I mean is that only God is without sin, perfect, holy, and righteous. In order for there to be a created being that never sinned, they would themselves have to be like God, and there is only One God, right?

But, we will be redeemed from the presence of sin in the Eternal State, and the reason that is possible is not something attributed to us, but, it will be because GOd resides in us.

So why are we separated from God? Adam? Why was Adam and Eve here?

Same reason people get a pup. We know there is work ahead of us to train the pup and get him to a point where he is not doing things he shouldn't do.

Same thing with why people have children. You know you're going to have change diapers, lose sleep, and for the woman go through excruciating pain, so why would anyone put themselves through that?

Same reason God created the heavens and the earth and put man in it.

The only question we have to ask ourselves is...

...how long are we going to make God change our diapers?




Continued...

 

[loDebar]

Revelation 4:11
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Yes, no one is thinkg God is not worthy of Glory. Is he not glorified by the creation of Heaven?
This world is not equal with Heaven.

 

[loDebar]

It would be much like why people do not go get fully trained dogs.

God could have created a robotic race which never sinned, but, what you might consider is that GOd does not create...

...gods.

What I mean is that only God is without sin, perfect, holy, and righteous. In order for there to be a created being that never sinned, they would themselves have to be like God, and there is only One God, right?

But, we will be redeemed from the presence of sin in the Eternal State, and the reason that is possible is not something attributed to us, but, it will be because GOd resides in us.




Same reason people get a pup. We know there is work ahead of us to train the pup and get him to a point where he is not doing things he shouldn't do.

Same thing with why people have children. You know you're going to have change diapers, lose sleep, and for the woman go through excruciating pain, so why would anyone put themselves through that?

Same reason God created the heavens and the earth and put man in it.

The only question we have to ask ourselves is...

...how long are we going to make God change our diapers?




Continued...

We could have been created for all you say in Heaven, There is free will in Heaven or the angles could not have sinned.
This pup could have been in Heaven, why the separation?

 

[Darrell C]

Thank you
Would it be better for fellowship for me to born in Heaven?

You could not be born in Heaven, only those who are born again can come into the presence of God.

Man's problem is that he is conceived and born separated from God. He does not, as Adam did, have the benefit of communion with God directly (and keep in mind this was in our realm, not Heaven), and that communion was lost when Adam sinned.

Adam, had he not sinned, would still have had no justification for coming into God's presence in God's Realm, Heaven. He had the opportunity to basically exist forever (having access to the Tree of Life), but, due to Satan's deception of Eve and Eve giving of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to him, Adam lost that direct communion and was thrust out of the only presence of God he then had access to.

So we consider that God created us with the need for Eternal Redemption, and it is likely that through this method He achieves something He did not with the Angels, of whom we have nothing to suggest they will be redeemed and brought into eternal union with God.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

What if Satan had not sinned? Where would we be?

Why introduce hypotheticals into your search for understanding? That is a unending merry go round.

Just focus on what we have been told in Scripture, and Scripture will give you the understanding you seek.

Why did God want to created a separate place from Heaven? What was He doing? Why was this necessary?

Why do most people keep their dogs outside?

I don't think we can fully understand why the creation of the New Creature would call first for the Fall, but, that is how God planned it out.

Again, I view it as similar to why people get pups, or have children, because there is a bond that is formed between the Master and His child that is set against the framework of our fallen condition.

We could ask, why did God make it so people had to be born as infants. Why not just have a woman lay an egg, and when the egg hatched, out pops a fully grown man already dressed in the uniform of his chosen profession.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Lucifer would still be in Heaven but instead he is here, on earth according to Job

Jde 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2Pe 2:4

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

How can they be in hell, if they are here, Jesus even talked to one in the NT

This is not hell ot eternal punishment , but Tataroo, the innermost most secure keep of the Greek dead adode.

Was this place created to hold the fallen angels?

First, you forgot to quote Job, lol.

Second, you are correct, Tartarus is not (gehenna) Hell, and is unrelated to the demons that are on the earth at present, because we see they are confined in what is most likely a spiritual prison much like Hades.

Third, you again introduce that which is hypothetical, because the fact is Lucifer did sin, and was cast out of God's presence in Heaven.

Lastly, going back to Job, most assume that when the sons of God (Angels) come before God (Job 1), that it is in Heaven that they come before Him. Nothing in Job suggests that, and there is no reason not to understand that it may be in Sheol/Hades that they come before Him. There is a basic principle we see where coming into God's presence in His Realm is distinct from coming into God's presence in this, or any other realm (i.e., earth, Hades). Thus we see reference to men seeing God, and reconcile that with John's statement:


1 John 4:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

God is glorified by redeeming sinners. not just creating,

Agreed, but that is not the only reason. He is glorified as well when His redeemed do that which is right and just.

He could have created more than the unuverse in Heaven Why the separation of two parts?

He may have created more than the universe known to us, and we simply do not have knowledge of it. I have often wondered if Angels went through something similar to man's creation and redemption.

Jesus said plainly this is a prison,

Could you tell me where He said that?

Perhaps you are thinking of...


Luke 4:18
King James Version (KJV)

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,


Man is viewed as being a prisoner in this world, but that is a reference to his bondage to sin, rather than the view that this world is a "prison."


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

unless Jesus ministry was not for everyone.

As a matter of fact, if we are speaking of His earthly ministry, it was not in fact for everyone:


Matthew 10:5-6
King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



Matthew 15:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


He functioned first and foremost as the Prophesied Messiah of Israel, which had ramifications of Gentile Inclusion, but, it would not be until the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was revealed to men by the Spirit sent from Heaven (the Comforter) that the Mystery of the Gospel would be unveiled to men.

Not many take that into consideration, but it is a critical point which will determine how well you understand Christ and His ministries.

my point was nothng here isnot as glorius and nor glorifying to Him as things in Heaven.

Not sure I would agree with that:

Luke 15
King James Version (KJV)


6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

This is a holding place, a prison, for the purpose of redeemption

That doesn't mean that life cannot be good, and glorifying to God.

Men like Noah, Abraham, and Moses had nowhere near the understanding of our need for redemption as we do, yet they lived lives dedicated to glorifying God.

And I think a man like Paul knew the difference between being "in a prison" in the literal sense and the liberty he had in Christ.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

But this world as a "prison"? I think that concept veers dangerously close to some gnostic concepts and is not a view supported by Scripture.

There is a basic principle of our existence here being likened to a prison, though it is not physical, but deals with the bondage of man to sin.

This...

Luke 4:18
King James Version (KJV)

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,


...and this...


Isaiah 61:1
King James Version (KJV)

61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;


...look into Man's desperate need for redemption from sin.

This...


Ephesians 4:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.


...is held by some, myself included, as referring to Christ's deliverance of the Old Testament Saint from Hades. Eternal Redemption was accomplished by Christ on the Cross, and it was through the Cross that t transgressions of the Old Testament Saints were redeemed.

But, I will say that the earth itself, or creation, is not the "prison" we are set free from.

By the way, first time running across you, so wanted to say welcome to the Forum, I hope your time here will be blessed and that you in turn will be a blessing to those here.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

We could have been created for all you say in Heaven,

I don't see it that way. Just because Adam was created with a superiority over all creation does not mean that Adam was sin free. We know he wasn't because after all...he fell into sin. So God would have had to have created him differently than He did, in order for Adam to be suited to come into God's presence in Heaven.

Secondly, we understand by the Word of God that God intends for there to be a New heavens (universe) and Earth which man will dwell on eternally. He is still going to accomplish the very thing you think He should have in the beginning, and this new heavens and Earth will be outside the Realm of God, though it will be bridged by New Jerusalem.

That was His intention from the beginning and that is what He will accomplish ultimately. And just as we are stronger through our experiences in life, even so I think our going through what we go through in this life makes for a stronger bond between God and ourselves. Had God just created us sin free we would not have the gratitude we now have through the Redemption which is through Christ Jesus.

There is free will in Heaven or the angles could not have sinned.

The one thing I would tell you about Free Will that I believe every Christian should understand is this: Free Will has absolutely no bearing on Salvation.

The only free will men will exercise in a salvific context is to reject God, and that is because their nature has a proclivity for sin.

Secondly, oftentimes sin is not a matter of "free will," it is a matter of...

...there is no other option left to the individual. "I just had to do it!" is the theme song of the Natural Man.

So in regards to Satan, he just had to do it, because he is, after all, a created being and not perfect in righteousness and holiness as God is. God cannot sin, all others will, though.

This pup could have been in Heaven, why the separation?

It didn't start out as separation, though. The relationship with God was for Adam a face to face communion. He had that as long as he came under obedience to the will of God as expressed to him by God.

I will say this, though, I have often speculated that Adam, knowing his wife's fate for her sin (death), chose to share her fate. He was, after all, the most remarkable man ever to come into existence, second only to Christ the Son of God. Everything in the original creation was better than that which we see now, because everything has been under a curse of degradation since the Fall. Love, in my view, was something better understood by Adam than any other being that has lived since the Fall, so I speculate (and that is all it is) we just might find a nobility (from a human perspective) in Adam's sin someday. Doesn't make his sin against God okay, but, from a human perspective we might understand the love we have for our spouses, and a willingness to die with them should they come under penalty for death. It may be that is why God allowed for the deaths of an animal, or animals, to cover their sin, rather than exacting the penalty upon them physically that say. They did die, spiritually, when the relationship with God ended and they were thrust out of His presence. Again, just speculation.


God bless.

 

[supersoldier71]

There is a basic principle of our existence here being likened to a prison, though it is not physical, but deals with the bondage of man to sin.

This...

Luke 4:18
King James Version (KJV)

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,


...and this...


Isaiah 61:1
King James Version (KJV)

61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;


...look into Man's desperate need for redemption from sin.

This...


Ephesians 4:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.


...is held by some, myself included, as referring to Christ's deliverance of the Old Testament Saint from Hades. Eternal Redemption was accomplished by Christ on the Cross, and it was through the Cross that t transgressions of the Old Testament Saints were redeemed.

But, I will say that the earth itself, or creation, is not the "prison" we are set free from.

By the way, first time running across you, so wanted to say welcome to the Forum, I hope your time here will be blessed and that you in turn will be a blessing to those here.


God bless.

Sure, no doubt, but as to the OP's question....

I feel that he's wandering into some areas that are not necessarily articulated in Scripture, and so any conclusions won't be inherently accurate.

He's asking why God chose to create heaven and earth as separate domains within His creation. I have an idea and it has to do with the work of Christ in adopting us into His household, but again, why that required Adam and the Fall...I don't know.

 

[loDebar]

The question regarding Satan's sin could be stated as what was the situation before he fell? Was there and earth? before sin?

I say no.

 

[Darrell C]

Sure, no doubt, but as to the OP's question....

I feel that he's wandering into some areas that are not necessarily articulated in Scripture, and so any conclusions won't be inherently accurate.

He's asking why God chose to create heaven and earth as separate domains within His creation. I have an idea and it has to do with the work of Christ in adopting us into His household, but again, why that required Adam and the Fall...I don't know.

Spent a couple hours the other day on the phone with a fellow with much the same train of thought, which ultimately shows an unfamiliarity with Scripture. And the best thing to do is simply try to encourage them to get into God's Word and in doing so God will bring such hypothetical speculation to rest.

I finally had to tell the guy, look, you're glorifying yourself over God. He denied it, lol, but that's what he was doing. He felt God was wrong to "create man just to kill him," when the fact is God did not. Man's death as a result of judgment goes directly to man's sin, beginning with Adam. And I think it may be that this is the (or a similar) train of thought with IoDebar. And while we might view that as outside of what Scripture teaches, I think most of us went through the same process of coming to understand things like God destroying all but Noah and his family, Israel being ordered to exact judgment upon idolatrous Canaan, or understanding animal sacrifice.

Its just something that takes a better familiarity with Scripture to put to rest.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The question regarding Satan's sin could be stated as what was the situation before he fell? Was there and earth? before sin?

I say no.

Then where was he cast out of Heaven...to?

God bless.

 

[supersoldier71]

Spent a couple hours the other day on the phone with a fellow with much the same train of thought, which ultimately shows an unfamiliarity with Scripture. And the best thing to do is simply try to encourage them to get into God's Word and in doing so God will bring such hypothetical speculation to rest.

I finally had to tell the guy, look, you're glorifying yourself over God. He denied it, lol, but that's what he was doing. He felt God was wrong to "create man just to kill him," when the fact is God did not. Man's death as a result of judgment goes directly to man's sin, beginning with Adam. And I think it may be that this is the (or a similar) train of thought with IoDebar. And while we might view that as outside of what Scripture teaches, I think most of us went through the same process of coming to understand things like God destroying all but Noah and his family, Israel being ordered to exact judgment upon idolatrous Canaan, or understanding animal sacrifice.

Its just something that takes a better familiarity with Scripture to put to rest.


God bless.

The "emergence" argument asserts that in order to create the elect as God desires them, the only cosmologically efficient means to do so is the reality with which we are familiar, the one in which Adam sinned. That is, the events, conditions, people and actions--the sum total of them--are all required elements to create the people that God wants to create.

NOTE: I am not arguing for the existence of other "realities", nor does the emergence argument necessarily do so either.

It is true that the chain of events required to create a specific person with specific traits and characteristics, from Adam through you and I is a spectacularly complex process of which only God has mastery. And His mastery is complete, perfect and unbroken.

Other than that, I got nothin'.