It refers to the entire history , the earth is specifily mention as being void, almost a quote of Gen 1:1
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Why did God create the Universe?
- Thread starter loDebar
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Darkness does exist in Heaven and there was no sin before Satan,
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever
Yet they were expelled into darkness when they sinned
Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Darkness was created to hold the angels. There was no need before.
Jesus ministry was to those bound as prisoner in darkness
Isa 42:7
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prisonhouse.
So show me that in the context, LoDebar. That's all you have to do.
While most will take another man's word for something, I will take only the Word of God.
You will not be able to show that Jeremiah steps out of the context he maintains in this chapter. The context is one of judgment, hence the land being void and without form.
So let's take a little closer look:
Jeremiah 4:23-25
King James Version (KJV)
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
The implication is that...there should have been light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
In Creation the mountains did not exist until after the statement of the earth being without form and void is made.
The implication being...mountains are already in existence when He looks.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
The implication is...there should have been men and birds.
Why weren't they there, LoDebar?
27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.
30 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.
The problem you have is that in Creation the declaration of being without form and void is made before anything is shaped. Here, in view is that which was in existence.
In Creation, God corrected that, here...He is causing it.
Its really very simple, LoDebar. Clinging to the doctrine you want to believe isn't going to change the context of the passage.
God bless.
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it is not changing the doctrine, the doctrine has been changed. To diminsh God's glory actually.
He was mentioning the entire event not one time. in Jeremiah.
Satan and others was here "chained in darkness" before the earth was foremed. So much so that the shouted(in surprise, imo) at the creation of light
When God was asking whetre he was when things happened?
Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
same sons of God in Job.
They are spirits, they do not need a place to land. They were here in "chained in darkness"
You do not only take the Word of God, we were not taught that way, We had man's opinion included,
Do take the scripture only but not man's translation. Try to understand from original language and MEANING. When you find something that we think is in conflict with God's character , we have to stop and ask questions. Scripture is not in confluct with scipture , not the Holy Spirit not God's character.
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First, where do you see "darkness in Heaven" in this passage?
Secondly, this is referring to the new heavens and Earth. Not the one in existence now.
When this new heavens and earth are created...all demons will be in Hell (gehenna).
No, LoDebar, this is specific to the Angels which kept not their first estate. It does not apply to Satan and all demons, because he and they are still active on this earth. He is called "the god of this world." He walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.
So give me Scripture for that. Show me where the statement "Darkness was created to hold the angels" can be found.
Hell was created for Satan and his angels:
Matthew 25:41
King James Version (KJV)
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Demons know that their judgment is pending...
Matthew 8:29
King James Version (KJV)
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
The implication being...it hasn't happened yet.
And the darkness they sat under wasn't being on the earth, it was being under sin.
That is what Christ came to remedy.
And as I showed you before, Christ's ministry was specific to Israel...not the world. He did not reveal the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ to His Disciples, the Comforter did that when He came.
And I would suggest to you that in view is the prison house of Hades, from whence Christ liberated those held captive by sin.
Again, men did not go into the presence of God until Christ died for them:
Hebrews 9:6-9
King James Version (KJV)
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
In view is man's entrance to God, which was accomplished in parable, not in reality. Men only had entrance to God's presence on this earth, not in His Realm, Heaven. The "Holiest of All" is defined as Heaven here:
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
We see how we enter into God's presence now that the way is made manifest:
Hebrews 10:19-20
King James Version (KJV)
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
"The Blood" and "His flesh" speak of His death in our stead.
And we go back to what Adam lost...entrance to the presence of God, and thus communion with Him.
Christ remedied that condition for man, for God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. And in the Greek, the word translated reconciliation is also translated Atonement.
God bless.
Look, you simply want me to agree with what you want to believe, but I cannot do that.
You are ignoring the context and claiming it has been changed, the irony being...you are the one imposing something into the context.
And this because you are hung up on the earth being a prison.
I have shown you the context cannot be broken, so when you want to show me, from the text, how it is that Creation is in view, then we will look at it. But I cannot spend time addressing the reiteration of the same arguments...already addressed.
Until you start taking out of Scripture what is there, and cease putting into it what is not, you will not grow in understanding. You will create your own Bible, your own god, and completely miss out on what God has for you.
God bless.
So, they were "chained in darkness" and the demons shouted for joy?
Exactly what faith are you of, LoDebar? What is the name of the fellowship you are a member of?
God bless.
One more point on this:
Job 1:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
Satan is distinguished from the sons of God.
Secondly, you are not distinguishing between fallen angels and Holy Angels. There is a difference. So we would not view these as "the same sons of God."
If all Angels are in view, then that would suggest that the fall of Satan and his angels had not yet taken place.
God bless.
Okay, lets start looking at your proof texts a little more closely.
Address this question posed to you earlier:
First, where do you see "darkness in Heaven" in this passage?
Show me where you see darkness in this passage.
Address this point as well:
That's two relatively simple questions posed to what you have provided to support your doctrine. I will only respond to your address of these two points and I would like to know the name of the type of Baptist church you attend.
I will check in the morning for your response.
Good night, and...
God bless.
Address this question posed to you earlier:
First, where do you see "darkness in Heaven" in this passage?
Show me where you see darkness in this passage.
Address this point as well:
That's two relatively simple questions posed to what you have provided to support your doctrine. I will only respond to your address of these two points and I would like to know the name of the type of Baptist church you attend.
I will check in the morning for your response.
Good night, and...
God bless.
i have shown you the context of Jeremiah.
There was only light in heaven, he was expelled into darkness which had to be created for that purpose.
They are not in hell They are here, Peter uses Tartaroo translated hell, It is the innermodst keep of the place of the dead in Greek. Satan is here(Gen, Job. the NT) devils are here . (Jesus spoke to one in NT, even other possessions)
To a "light bearer" darkness is an appropiate prison
The earth being without form and void before light was made is DARKNESS
Christ's ministry was not specific to Israel but used Israel first to save the world. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit,at His time. but God had priests here before Abraham. God deal with the world through Israel,
It is sin but not only figurative sin, God is Light
1Jo 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
Separation from God is darkness, and before Gen 1:3 there was no light.
Realize, We are the bad guys of this narrative and the story is of salvation, We invented how we became to need that salvation.
There was only light in heaven, he was expelled into darkness which had to be created for that purpose.
They are not in hell They are here, Peter uses Tartaroo translated hell, It is the innermodst keep of the place of the dead in Greek. Satan is here(Gen, Job. the NT) devils are here . (Jesus spoke to one in NT, even other possessions)
To a "light bearer" darkness is an appropiate prison
The earth being without form and void before light was made is DARKNESS
Christ's ministry was not specific to Israel but used Israel first to save the world. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit,at His time. but God had priests here before Abraham. God deal with the world through Israel,
It is sin but not only figurative sin, God is Light
1Jo 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
Separation from God is darkness, and before Gen 1:3 there was no light.
Realize, We are the bad guys of this narrative and the story is of salvation, We invented how we became to need that salvation.
supersoldier71
Active Member
So what you are saying is that the God of the Bible DID NOT know what was going to happen within His Creation?
You're arguing that God is not omniscient. If a god is not all-knowing,
it's not the God of the Bible.
In fact your arguments have continually ignored what the Bible says about God and creation. In fact, you have disputed the inerrancy of Scripture.
Also, when given answers based on sound exegesis you reject them in favor of your own anti-biblical view.
I sense a deeper issue here.
God bless.
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supersoldier71
Active Member
Again, you only got half of that right.
Until you accept what Scripture says and begin to step away from that version of gnosticism, there can be no useful discussion.
What you are stating is not in Scripture and any hermeneutical process used to arrive at that conclusion is flawed.
Irreparably flawed.
Not at all. You have imposed your own understanding of the text because of a similar statement made in Gensis One.
You completely ignore the context of Jeremiah 4 and instead of acknowledging that in view is God's Judgment on Judah and Jerusalem, you try to support your own doctrine.
Judah and Jerusalem is in view, that is what has been shown. All you have done is reiterate what you want to believe. Posting a verse and saying "this is what it means" doesn't "show the context."
LoDebar, stop and think about that: if there is only light in Heaven and Satan is thrust out...darkness didn't need to be created.
I've already said that the demons in 2 Peter and Jude are not in Hell. I made the point they were in Tartarus. Satan is not in Tartarus, the demons in these two Epistles are. Satan walks the earth.
Yet you keep saying he is in prison.
The earth was not created a prison, and Hell is the only place we are told of that was created for Satan and his demons.
And the simple fact is that they have not all been judged yet. When they are, they will be cast into Hell.
Not relevant. The darkness lasted not even a day.
Genesis describes the physical universe being created, darkness moved upon the face of the deep, and then...
Genesis 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Now the darkness is not a spiritual darkness or spiritual abode made for demons, it is physical darkness in a physical universe. We see that darkness, which is still around today on the earth (when light is absent)...
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
The darkness here is called, by God...Night.
Not prison, not a prison for demons.
Continued...
It was.
Matthew 15:22-24
King James Version (KJV)
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
We see, when Christ sends out the disciples to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was rellevant to those the Kingdom was promised to (Israel), that they are forbidden to go unto the Gentiles and Samaritans:
Matthew 10
King James Version (KJV)
1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
As I said before, there is much you need to understand in order to put away what you want to believe, and begin believing what is actually taught in Scripture.
You deny Christ's Ministry was specific to Israel, but, can you show why these very plain statements do not mean what they say? How you can say Christ was mistaken for thinking He was sent unto the Lost Sheep of Israel only?
The answer lies in understanding that the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a separate knowledge to the Gospel of the Kingdom, and that it was not being revealed to men by Christ. The mysteries of the Kingdom, yes, but not the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ. The Gospel of the Kingdom was specific to the revelation given to Israel that God would restore the Kingdom of Israel, and at that time bring in a Son of David to sit on a Throne that would have no end. The Jews interpreted that to mean that a literal descendant of David would rise up and restore the Kingdom, and from that time on not fail to have a son rule in His place.
The Gospel of Christ, on the other hand, reveals that the Eternal nature of that Throne is in fact Eternal, because the Son of David Who would arise would be the Son of God. A literal descendant, yes, but more than that, the Savior of not just Israel, but of the World.
We see the physical understanding of the disciples on the very Day of Ascension:
Acts 1:4-7
King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
They are told they will, not many days hence, receive the Promise of the Father (which refers to the Old Testament Promise of God to pour out His Spirit) which He (Christ) taught them about.
And their understanding is carnal, even as it was here, when Peter voices his opposition to the GOspel of Christ:
Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Peter did precisely what you do, my friend, He ignored the Word of Christ to maintain what it was he wanted to believe. And what he wanted to believe was that God would fulfill the Prophecy as he understood it. The truth is, God will fulfill it much in the way Peter, And most Jews understood it, but not yet. Peter wanted the physical Kingdom, not the Kingdom we understand in light of New Testament Scripture and the revelation provided us by the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter.
Israel will be restored as a Kingdom under Christ:
Romans 11:25-27
King James Version (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Continued...
God at no time used Israel, or any other nation or people...to save the world.
You are seriously confused about Redemption. Salvation is through Christ alone, and it will not be until you understand this that you will be able to exchange your confusion with sound doctrine.
You are correct if you are talking about God's Promise to send His Spirit in the Ministry of Comforter.
Who all, to a man, worked within a physical framework, accomplishing temporal and temporary atonement and remission of sins.
Just as the Levites did.
That is why the Writer of Hebrews states that their work was always incomplete:
Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
There was no Salvation in the Law, or in its sacrifices, because those sacrifices could not make the comer thereunto (the one offering or the one being offered up for) perfect, which in the Greek means completion, a "bringing to an end."
Only the Sacrifice of Christ can do that:
Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Continued...
In one sense, that is true, because Israel was the Old Testament figure of the Body of Christ, and was created by God to be a witness nation unto His Name.
And they failed.
Sadly, the Body of Christ, because they have not been redeemed from fallen flesh yet, also fails, and carries out her mission imperfectly.
But you are mistaken to impose any form of salvific value to a people beset by sin. Neither they nor we accomplish salvation, that is wholly the Work of Sovereign God, Who always initiates relationship with men, and today, He does this through the Ministry of the Comforter, Who convicts the lost:
John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
You are correct: light and darkness are seen to speak of good and evil, knowledge and ignorance.
And it is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
My friend, you can't build theology with loosely corresponding words. You have to understand the context of every passage. Then you can understand what is figurative and what is literal, and what the literal intent of that which is figurative is.
That''s not a big secret, LoDebar, its just basic to our understanding.
That does not mean we embrace a hyper view of the earth and man. God's glory is still seen in Creation, and stands as a testimony to Man.
You are the only inventor here, though to be fair, you did not yourself invent the false doctrine you have embraced, you have simply adopted the error of those before you, who also built their theology through ignoring what Scripture actually teaches.
You have been corrected on several points, and you will not yield to the error. You are welcome, as asked before, to show in Jeremiah Four how the context changes and Judah and Jerusalem cease to be the subject of the judgment in view. You are welcome to show why Christ is in error to think He was sent to the Lost Sheep of Israel only in His earthly Ministry.
But you won't do that, will you. You will continue to reiterate your doctrine and ignore the points raised against it.
The question is...why?
God bless.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
It's not referring to "the Universe": it's talking about the "earth". And it's not even about the "physical" "earth" anyway. It's in builder's terms. The planet we call "earth" has no "foundations" and no "cornerstone". God did not have to build it with a measuring device or a "line" because He spoke it into existence., It has no "bars" or "doors", "morning stars" don't "sing" and physical "waves" are not "proud". This passage is not "literal" but it's absolutely true and speaking of something much deeper, darker and mysterious than what we just read on the surface.
Job 38 King James Version (KJV)
Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
The first mention of "sons of God" in the Bible is found in Genesis chapter 6. The particular "sons of God" mentioned in Genesis 6 are the NAMED individuals in Genesis chapter 5 who are also mentioned as the direct ancestors of Christ in Luke chapter 3. These notably including Enoch who "walked with God" and Noah who was a "just man" and "walked with God". These "sons of God" were believers.
The next mention of "sons of God" is in Job chapter 1 and then Job chapter 2 who "came to present themselves before the Lord" in similar wording as Moses speaking "before the Lord" and David "dancing before the Lord" and Abraham "standing before the Lord". Both of these accounts are speaking of believers who came "before the Lord" on planet earth to worship, sacrifice, whatever. It's NOT speaking of angels going before a throne in Heaven because "Angels" cannot be "sons of God". Hebrews 1:5 Then you have direct definitions, of what "sons of God" are, in the New Testament: It says they are believers. That leaves Job 38 to explain.
If "all" the sons of God shouted for joy when a "cornerstone" was laid in Job 38:7, where were the ones in Genesis 6, Job 1:7 and 2:1. and the rest mentioned in the New Testament? If they weren't included then it wasn't "all" of them. And who laid the "Cornerstone"? And who IS the "Cornerstone"? AND.....if "all" of them were there when the cornerstone was laid, where was Brother Job? Ever heard of the "prophetic perfect"?
supersoldier71
Active Member
Yeah...uhm...no.
That exegesis fails on virtually every level, and the hermeneutics are...spurious.
God bless.
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