Why did God create the Universe?

[loDebar]

God at no time used Israel, or any other nation or people...to save the world.

You are seriously confused about Redemption. Salvation is through Christ alone, and it will not be until you understand this that you will be able to exchange your confusion with sound doctrine.




You are correct if you are talking about God's Promise to send His Spirit in the Ministry of Comforter.




Who all, to a man, worked within a physical framework, accomplishing temporal and temporary atonement and remission of sins.

Just as the Levites did.

That is why the Writer of Hebrews states that their work was always incomplete:


Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


There was no Salvation in the Law, or in its sacrifices, because those sacrifices could not make the comer thereunto (the one offering or the one being offered up for) perfect, which in the Greek means completion, a "bringing to an end."

Only the Sacrifice of Christ can do that:


Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Continued...

first, I do not need the verses printed, just provide the reference and you statement

Melchisidek was a priest of the Most HIGH GOD
Gen 14:18

Salvation is of the Jews, and Jesus

If you deny scripture without seeking the meanings , you are on a slippery slope. If you believde only in things yiu can explain , you are limited.
If the Bible says "morning stare" sang, who are you to say it is not so?
or "sons of God" shouted ?
Mornings stars are a mistranslation , it is rather " lights in heaven" It ,means the unfallen angels
sons of God, in this case means the fallen angels as in Gen and Job. either way, they esixted AT creation

Salvation is of Christ alone, that is not the discussion but why the universe was made? The fallen angels were the first ones here.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

The first mention of "sons of God" in the Bible is found in Genesis chapter 6. The particular "sons of God" mentioned in Genesis 6 are the NAMED individuals in Genesis chapter 5 who are also mentioned as the direct ancestors of Christ in Luke chapter 3. These notably including Enoch who "walked with God" and Noah who was a "just man" and "walked with God". These "sons of God" were believers.

The next mention of "sons of God" is in Job chapter 1 and then Job chapter 2 who "came to present themselves before the Lord" in similar wording as Moses speaking "before the Lord" and David "dancing before the Lord" and Abraham "standing before the Lord". Both of these accounts are speaking of believers who came "before the Lord" on planet earth to worship, sacrifice, whatever. It's NOT speaking of angels going before a throne in Heaven because "Angels" cannot be "sons of God". Hebrews 1:5 Then you have direct definitions, of what "sons of God" are, in the New Testament: It says they are believers. That leaves Job 38 to explain.

If "all" the sons of God shouted for joy when a "cornerstone" was laid in Job 38:7, where were the ones in Genesis 6, Job 1:7 and 2:1. and the rest mentioned in the New Testament? If they weren't included then it wasn't "all" of them. And who laid the "Cornerstone"? And who IS the "Cornerstone"? AND.....if "all" of them were there when the cornerstone was laid, where was Brother Job? Ever heard of the "prophetic perfect"?

Yeah...uhm...no.

That exegesis fails on virtually every level, and the hermeneutics are...spurious.

God bless.



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Prove it.

 

[supersoldier71]

Prove it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Yeah. No.

That'd be waste of my time.

You see I've learned that when someone comes out of left field with something, especially one of those gnostic "special revelation" statements...like, just as an example: yours...they really really like it out there in left field.

No one else on planet earth that calls themselves a Christian thinks as you do.

But...uh...you keep doin' you.

Take it easy.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

It's plain you don't know what you're talking about, seeing all you can do here is mock.

 

[supersoldier71]

It's plain you don't know what you're talking about, seeing all you can do here is mock.

You twist Scripture to openly state that "something dark" was occurring concurrently with God's act of creation and I don't know what I'm talking about?

Enoch and Noah are the "sons of God" in Noah? Is that really what you're implying?

Just so we are clear: yes, your opinion deserves to be mocked.

Any opinion on Scripture that is counter to Scripture is deserving of scorn, mocking and derision.

Yours was just particularly ridiculous.


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[loDebar]

We are all sons of God, some bad, some good, some redeemed.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

We are all sons of God, some bad, some good, some redeemed.

This is true only to the limited extent that God made us all (Acts 17:28).
However, one should also consider Hosea 1:8 and John 8:42-45. God's true children are they who love Him.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

You twist Scripture to openly state that "something dark" was occurring concurrently with God's act of creation and I don't know what I'm talking about?

Enoch and Noah are the "sons of God" in Noah? Is that really what you're implying?

Just so we are clear: yes, your opinion deserves to be mocked.

Any opinion on Scripture that is counter to Scripture is deserving of scorn, mocking and derision.

Yours was just particularly ridiculous.


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"in Noah"? Where did you get that? Did I do a
typo?

Again: Enoch and Noah were named in Genesis chapter five(5), and all of the named individuals in chapter 5, are the ones being referred to in the very next chapter as "sons of God" (chapter 6) and these named individuals are also direct ancestors in the lineage of Christ in Luke chapter 3. "Sons of God"="Believers"

 

[SheepWhisperer]

We are all sons of God, some bad, some good, some redeemed.

No, one cannot become a "son of God" until they believe on the "Son of God"..
Galatians 4:4-6
John 1:12
Romans 8:14
Romans 8:19
Philippians 2:15
1 John 3:1-2

 

[loDebar]

No, one cannot become a "son of God" until they believe on the "Son of God"..
Galatians 4:4-6
John 1:12
Romans 8:14
Romans 8:19
Philippians 2:15
1 John 3:1-2

no, you know about the saved, who have been redeemed which you listed John 1 :12 describes we have the power
but there are others listed you know about Gen and Job and you know about the lost Jews in Mark Jesus called gods who were trying to kill him. He was quoting from Psalms 82. The same term in
Isa 41:23
Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

So bad, lost and redeemed sons of God, We are all created by God

This is true only to the limited extent that God made us all (Acts 17:28).
However, one should also consider Hosea 1:8 and John 8:42-45. God's true children are they who love Him.

Yes restored by redeemption, legally sons of God

 

[Van]

We know that Gen 1 creation story does not include Heaven of God's abode because of Job 38:7 when some beings already existed and reacted with creation . So Why did God create the physical universe if Heaven already existed?

Hi Lodebar, my response just addresses your opening post, I have not read the follow-on pages of posts.

First, before creation God in three Persons existed, and the place where He existed might be considered His Abode or the third Heaven. But nothing else, no heavenly host, existed.

Second, when did God lay the foundation of the earth Job 38:4? Clearly it was during the creation week, apparently on day 3. But heaven, perhaps referring to the created universe, was created on day two. When were the entities created - "sons of God and morning stars? Apparently on day one or two.

Since God created us for His glory, then all the steps needed to provide our physical life sustaining environment need to be created to fulfill that purpose. So our first unanswered question is not why did God create the physical universe, but why did He make it so big. And as far as I know, the bible does not answer that question.

We do know, or I think we know, that God created us for some purpose of His, after He had created beings (sons of God, etc) so all that says is God had more than one purpose in creation.

Anyway, that is my two cents for what it is worth.

 

[loDebar]

Hi Lodebar, my response just addresses your opening post, I have not read the follow-on pages of posts.

First, before creation God in three Persons existed, and the place where He existed might be considered His Abode or the third Heaven. But nothing else, no heavenly host, existed.

Second, when did God lay the foundation of the earth Job 38:4? Clearly it was during the creation week, apparently on day 3. But heaven, perhaps referring to the created universe, was created on day two. When were the entities created - "sons of God and morning stars? Apparently on day one or two.

Since God created us for His glory, then all the steps needed to provide our physical life sustaining environment need to be created to fulfill that purpose. So our first unanswered question is not why did God create the physical universe, but why did He make it so big. And as far as I know, the bible does not answer that question.

We do know, or I think we know, that God created us for some purpose of His, after He had created beings (sons of God, etc) so all that says is God had more than one purpose in creation.

Anyway, that is my two cents for what it is worth.

Gen 1 is not about the creation of God's abode.

The first item created was light. therefore darkness preexisted.

God did glory in creation in Heaven, why a separate place?
The purpose of this place is redemption. Size is appropriate to holds spiritual beings how might move as lightning

 

[Darrell C]

first, I do not need the verses printed, just provide the reference and you statement

Sorry, but you do not dictate how I respond to posts.

And the fact of the matter is...

...you do need the Scripture.

You have a hodge podge theology based on poorly understood passages of Scripture, and you need to start accepting that which Scripture teaches.


2 Timothy 3:16-17
King James Version (KJV)

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Melchisidek was a priest of the Most HIGH GOD
Gen 14:18

Salvation is of the Jews, and Jesus

First, Melchizedek was not a Jew, lol.

Secondly, so salvation is of two sources?

Salvation is said to be of the Jews due to the progress of the Redemptive Plan unfolding through the Hebrew People. Jesus is of Jewish descent, that is how salvation is of the Jews. We do not discount their role as a witness nation, and their being given the Word of God (through which salvation comes), but that does not mean we attribute salvation to them as a people.

And third, how is this relevant?

If you deny scripture without seeking the meanings , you are on a slippery slope.

Isn't that what you are doing, my friend?

I have shown you the context of Jeremiah 4 and you reject what is really very basic.

If you believde only in things yiu can explain , you are limited.

There is much I believe that I cannot explain, so your assumption is irrelevant.

Secondly, being able to explain things I believe gives me quite the advantage over you, eh?



You can't explain why Jeremiah 4 has an inserted context, For example.

If the Bible says "morning stare" sang, who are you to say it is not so?

When did I say that?

or "sons of God" shouted ?

When did I deny that?

Mornings stars are a mistranslation , it is rather " lights in heaven" It ,means the unfallen angels

Who told you it was translated improperly?

You need to leave off books about the Bible and get into the Books of the Bible.

sons of God, in this case means the fallen angels as in Gen and Job. either way, they esixted AT creation

I agree they existed at Creation, but I do not agree that the sons of God that present themselves before God in Job can be dogmatically asserted as fallen Angels.

Satan is distinguished from the sons of God which would imply that in view are Holy Angels, and Satan.

Salvation is of Christ alone, that is not the discussion but why the universe was made?

Salvation in Christ is the heart of every Theological Discussion, my friend. Salvation in Christ not being part of every discussion is like wet not being part of every swim.

The fallen angels were the first ones here.

And you have not one verse to support that. Just because Angels observed Creation does not mean they were "here," nor that they were on the earth.

In point of fact they could not have been on the earth, or, your proof text would then be rendered useless:


Genesis 1
King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


It does not say it was "...void, with the exception of the demons incarcerated on earth."


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

no, you know about the saved, who have been redeemed which you listed John 1 :12 describes we have the power

And what kind of "power" do you think you have?

Power to become the sons of God. That refers to Christ making it possible for men to be born of GOd, and does not extend itself to having power of our own.

but there are others listed you know about Gen and Job and you know about the lost Jews in Mark Jesus called gods who were trying to kill him. He was quoting from Psalms 82.

And Christ would have used it in the same context it was written:


Psalm 82
King James Version (KJV)

1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.


Its a physical context, speaking of the rulers (gods) over the people.

Have "gods" ruled the earth? have they defended the poor and fatherless? Done justice to the afflicted and needy? Delivered the poor and needy? Rid them out of the hand of the wicked?

No...men have done that.

So too, Christ is speaking to the rulers.


6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.


Do gods die? Not really possible, seeing there is One God.

The rulers will die like every other man.


8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Again, a physical and temporal context is found. The issue is the judgment of men as opposed to the righteous judgment of God.

If you read all of John 10, you will see that the context deals with the overseeing of the people. Christ is the Door, the Good Shepherd, and this is contrasted with those who do not care for the sheep (the people).

The point of this...


John 10:33-36
King James Version (KJV)

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


...is that Christ is The Ruler of the people, not just one given charge over men.

Now I want you to note especially v.35:


35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;


Are you going to say that the Word of God came unto...demons? Or Angels?

We know it did not. It came to...men.

The same term in
Isa 41:23
Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

And you need but to begin at the beginning of the Chapter to find the context, rather than yanking it out of context in a loose quote:


Isaiah 41
King James Version (KJV)

1 Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew their strength: let them come near; then let them speak: let us come near together to judgment.

2 Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow.

So bad, lost and redeemed sons of God, We are all created by God

Doesn't mean we don't distinguish between them or place them in a proper context when they appear in Scripture. We do the same with Angels and Demons.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

no, you know about the saved, who have been redeemed which you listed John 1 :12 describes we have the power
but there are others listed you know about Gen and Job and you know about the lost Jews in Mark Jesus called gods who were trying to kill him. He was quoting from Psalms 82. The same term in
Isa 41:23
Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

So bad, lost and redeemed sons of God, We are all created by God





Yes restored by redeemption, legally sons of God

You're not really a Baptist, are you.


God bless.

 

[loDebar]

You're not really a Baptist, are you.


God bless.

yeah, Fundamental basis,, then I studied , sola scriptura, rejection man opinions, commentaries and translation. I compared my understanding with , other scripture verses, and the characteristics of God, The Holy Spirit cannot oppose true scripture and vice versa.

So now I might be a Baptist ++ or something.

 

[Darrell C]

yeah, Fundamental basis,, then I studied , sola scriptura, rejection man opinions, commentaries and translation. I compared my understanding with , other scripture verses, and the characteristics of God, The Holy Spirit cannot oppose true scripture and vice versa.

So now I might be a Baptist ++ or something.

You did not arrive at your conclusions looking at Scripture only.

You are seeking to teach something that has no Biblical Basis.

So please don't blame the Holy Spirit for your doctrine.




God bless.

 

[loDebar]

I am not blaming, It is God's rule . The Holy Spirit will not lead you to do conflict with scripture.

I show scripture and repeat by scripture by scripture. If this is true, them this has to be so? Traditional teaching chooses to fill in with man's understanding and then repeat that as fact.

But you agree scripture cannot contradict the characteristics of God? nor other scripture

Can this be true? No fallen sinful angels are offered salvation? and this be true? "For there is no acceptance of faces with God," or KJV "For there is no respect of persons with God. "

Is God fair or are we ignorant? Does God chose favorites or are we not aware of something?

 

[Calypsis4]

I am not blaming, It is God's rule . The Holy Spirit will not lead you to do conflict with scripture.

I show scripture and repeat by scripture by scripture. If this is true, them this has to be so? Traditional teaching chooses to fill in with man's understanding and then repeat that as fact.

But you agree scripture cannot contradict the characteristics of God? nor other scripture

Can this be true? No fallen sinful angels are offered salvation? and this be true? "For there is no acceptance of faces with God," or KJV "For there is no respect of persons with God. "

Is God fair or are we ignorant? Does God chose favorites or are we not aware of something?

Yes, the Lord has favorites. He chose Jacob over Esau. His foreknowledge told him what both were going to be like and how they would end up. This has everything to do with His choices.

Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

We know that Gen 1 creation story does not include Heaven of God's aboad because of Job 38:7 when some beings already existed and reacted with creation . So Why did God create the physical universe if Heaven already existed?

Why does God need an "abode"? God is everywhere, at the same time. see Psalm 139:8
And I still say that "sons of God"=believers and angels=angels. The Book of Job even uses the word "angels" in another passage..

The answer to your first question is found in Genesis 3, the narrative of the Fall of Man. The short answer is the imputed sin of Adam, which could only be negated by the imputed righteousness of Christ Jesus, the Second Adam.

As to your second question: no one knows for sure why God, in eternity past, chose a course of action that would require God the Father to pour out His wrath on God the Son. In fact many of the explanations one finds ignore or misunderstand the nature of God: His omnipotence, His omniscience, His omnipresence. So any conclusion at which you arrive must account for those attributes of God.

For example, the death of Christ on the cross cannot have been "Plan B". Had Adam (whose sin doomed his offspring and separated him and all his descendants from God) not sinned, God would not have had to redeem His people. You'll hear some people--most of them are heretics, but some of them are just seriously misguided who actually claim this. It is impossible when viewed with regard to what we know about God.

An argument could be made that God created this course of events because it is the path that most glorifies Himself. This is sound reasoning, but cannot and purposely does not address the nuts and bolts of the concept.

All that to say...I don't know, but I'm glad He did.

Glory? God created everything for His "pleasure" the Bible says. What is His pleasure? Giving us "the Kingdom". The Bible even says Jesus "endured the cross" for the "Joy". What is the joy? Peace, love and joy in the Holy Ghost....with us. Oh yes, and Christ will be glorified in all that.