Why did Peter begin to sink?

[preacher4truth]

I did not align you with a Muslim.
Hindus believe that the Ganges River washes away sin.
That is another example of blind faith.

Christians do not operate by blind faith.
The illustration was about blind faith. If you believe without reason, you are believing with blind faith.

You most certainly did. Then on top of this I am also blind.

OK.

And now, not only blind, I also have blind faith.

OK.

Thanks.

 

[DHK]

I only warn you once. Obviously, you don't want to play nicely. We have given Scriptures. Not going to discuss something with one compares to a cult. And yes, you that's what you did. Giving an example of comparing one to a cult or how its like a cult is comparing to a cult no matter how you slice it.

You are not getting it are you.
The RCC believes in the assumption of Mary. That is blind faith. It is faith without any basis or reason.

 

[jbh28]

You are not getting it are you.
The RCC believes in the assumption of Mary. That is blind faith. It is faith without any basis or reason.

Please just edit your post. No need to take this to a personal level. You are a mod. You should be setting an example.

 

[DHK]

You most certainly did. Then on top of this I am also blind.

OK.

And now, not only blind, I also have blind faith.

OK.

Thanks.

If you have accepted something that you believe to be true (which may or may not be true) only because a person says it is, then you have accepted it blindly and without reason.

 

[preacher4truth]

If you have accepted something that you believe to be true (which may or may not be true) only because a person says it is, then you have accepted it blindly and without reason.

You're way over the line as both a Christian and a moderator. I've given you ample Scriptures regarding my position.

All you've said is instigative, negative, and filled with personal attacks.

OK.

Now to top it off I'm RC and/or have a "faith without reason." You're attacking my relationship with God here. I don't and won't take that lightly.

 

[Winman]

I didn't compare anyone to a cult.
A person who believes something without evidence believes it blindly. Then I gave an example. Because I gave an example out of Islam does not mean I was comparing anyone to Islam. I could have given many illustrations of people who act on "blind faith." It is believing without reason.

If you have given so many Scriptures, why did we go through five threads on the subject without anyone being able to give a text of Scripture demonstrating that faith was a gift of God, especially to the unsaved?

Exactly. Jbh28 says he has scripture to support faith is a gift, but fails to show them. It is true that there is a spiritual gift of faith that allowed Christians to perform miracles shown in 1 Cor 12:9 & 13:2, but there is not one verse in all of scripture that says God gives the gift of faith to an unbeliever. They can't show it, because it isn't there. This is the doctrine of men, not scripture.

 

[jbh28]

Exactly. Jbh28 says he has scripture to support faith is a gift, but fails to show them. It is true that there is a spiritual gift of faith that allowed Christians to perform miracles shown in 1 Cor 12:9 & 13:2, but there is not one verse in all of scripture that says God gives the gift of faith to an unbeliever. They can't show it, because it isn't there. This is the doctrine of men, not scripture.

It's been given plenty of times. No need to quote them again only to be falsely accused of not having them again later. But because I'm nice, I'll at least give you a link to someone else explaining it with the verses of the Bible that teach that faith is a gift of God. http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/piper/faith01.html One other thought, a person that has faith would be a believer. One in the same. But before he was given faith, he was an unbeliever. Once he is a believer, he has been given faith. Once he has been given faith, he is a believer.

 

[preacher4truth]

It's been given plenty of times. No need to quote them again only to be falsely accused of not having them again later. One other thought, a person that has faith would be a believer. One in the same. But before he was given faith, he was an unbeliever. Once he is a believer, he has been given faith. Once he has been given faith, he is a believer.

Amen, keep preaching it.

Understand that the faith he was given to believe came from Christ, Romans 10:17, 2 Peter 1:1-2.

Defend the faith given to saints. We've given a good apology for this, no need to go further.

- Peace

 

[Winman]

It's been given plenty of times. No need to quote them again only to be falsely accused of not having them again later. One other thought, a person that has faith would be a believer. One in the same. But before he was given faith, he was an unbeliever. Once he is a believer, he has been given faith. Once he has been given faith, he is a believer.

God provides the evidence to believe, we all have the ability to believe or refuse to believe when evidence is presented us. A perfect example was Thomas. He was not present when Jesus appeared to the apostles after his resurrection. The apostles all told Thomas that Jesus was risen and had appeared to them. Thomas should have believed, these men were his true and good friends who had spent three years with him. But Thomas refused to believe until he saw the nail prints in Jesus's hands, and the wound in his side. Later, Jesus appeared again and Thomas saw Jesus for himself. What caused his belief? Let's see what Jesus himself said.

Jn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Did Jesus say Thomas believed because he had been supernaturally zapped to believe? NO. Thomas believed simply because he saw Jesus.

Faith is not some magical, mystical substance. Faith is based on evidence and reason. Thomas saw Jesus, he could not deny the evidence of his own eyes. There was nothing magical here, to the contrary it was quite normal.

Faith is simply believeing God's promises as Abraham did, or Moses when God commanded him to go before Pharaoh. That took courage, but Moses believed God and did what he was told.

 

[percho]

:thumbsup:

Look, I mean no harm here, but the freewillers, for a certain percentage, see "faith" as some magical thing within them. The extreme of this is seen via television "evangelists." Then we have what is now know as "toxic-faith" where a parent will "believe" that his or her child will be healed, because they believed and had "no doubt in their heart" therefore God MUST heal them. All sorts of error come from the wrong concept of what faith is. It is not something within man. It is the gift of God, and it doesn't practice these foolish things I've mentioned above. As you say, it is seen as something some "muster up."

- Peace

Actually I said what I did in jest for I believe Christ is our faith. He got out of the boat and God allowed him to walk on the water yet when he allowed the fear of the wind to get his focus God let him sink. He could not maintain his focus on Jesus therefore God let him sink. David did much the same. A boy tending the sheep yet when his focus was upon God he killed a bear and a lion and a giant. Yet when God wasn't his focus he feared for his life and ran from Saul to the home of the giant who he had killed. All men this side of the resurrection I believe will be of little faith.

 

[Havensdad]

I didn't compare anyone to a cult.
A person who believes something without evidence believes it blindly. Then I gave an example. Because I gave an example out of Islam does not mean I was comparing anyone to Islam. I could have given many illustrations of people who act on "blind faith." It is believing without reason.

If you have given so many Scriptures, why did we go through five threads on the subject without anyone being able to give a text of Scripture demonstrating that faith was a gift of God, especially to the unsaved?

Uh, actually I did.

Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

 

[DHK]

Uh, actually I did.

Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

Paul is writing to the church at Rome. He is speaking of specific spiritual gifts:

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. (Romans 12:3-8)

These are gifts, temporary gifts that were given to the church at Rome before the NT was completed during the first century. Note the gift of prophecy mentioned. That is no longer a gift in use today, is it? It has ceased. So likewise have the other gifts in their supernatural character in which they were manifested in the first century. Here is what the "People's NT Commentary says about this passage:

The measure of faith. That measure of faith which would enable one to exercise spiritual gifts. Ro 12:4-8 show that this is Paul's meaning. It is not the ordinary faith that saves the soul, but the extraordinary faith, which was accompanied in the first century by supernatural gifts, that is meant.

This is not a proof-text for God giving faith today.
Faith is simply confidence. There is nothing supernatural about it. The supernatural spiritual gifts have ceased.

 

[jbh28]

Paul is writing to the church at Rome. He is speaking of specific spiritual gifts:

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. (Romans 12:3-8)

These are gifts, temporary gifts that were given to the church at Rome before the NT was completed during the first century. Note the gift of prophecy mentioned. That is no longer a gift in use today, is it? It has ceased. So likewise have the other gifts in their supernatural character in which they were manifested in the first century. Here is what the "People's NT Commentary says about this passage:

This is not a proof-text for God giving faith today.
Faith is simply confidence. There is nothing supernatural about it. The supernatural spiritual gifts have ceased.

Faith is still here today. Not a good rebuttal at all. Prophecy is much different from faith. You can't dismiss Scripture like this.

 

[JesusFan]

That is precisely the idea that I get from the expression "mustering up some faith." It seems to be used by Word of Faith adherents. Faith is not a tangible; not something you can lay hold of, store up, grab, accumulate, etc.
It is the quiet confidence that one must have in the Almighty Creator, whose promises are sure, and we have the assurance that He will keep them.

If you have faith as a little child--100% confidence in his parents that they will provide for him all of his necessities for his life. That simple child-like faith or confidence in his father and mother; that is the faith we must have in our heavenly Father.

This is why we MUST taech entire teaching of the Bible on any doctrine!

WOF/name it claim it etc take the doctrine of faith and extreme it, take it to the position that God is seen by them as being akin to the Force, that he has "spiritual laws/rules" and that IF one obeys them, even God MUST bow down before His own rules and be a genie...

heresy 101!

 

[JesusFan]

The absence of any Scripture showing that faith is a gift of God is proof enough. That onus is not on me. It is on you to prove that it is. Your acceptance of Calvinism is by blind faith, just like a Muslim accepts that he will go to paradise if blows himself up. You here this often enough and long enough that you believe it blindly without any Scriptural support. Show me from the Bible where it is a gift from God.

Faith comes from hearing. It comes from hearing the Word of God, as far as Biblical faith is concerned. All faith comes from hearing someone, something. We put our trust in people or things because they tell us the truth. Thus faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. (Rom.10:17)

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. (Romans 4:20-21)
--The example of Abraham:
1. He was strong in faith: our example of faith.
2. The best definition of faith is given here:
Being fully persuaded that what God had promised he would perform. That is faith. It is confidence in the word of another; in this case Abraham's confidence in God's word that he would perform the miracle of Isaac's birth even though both he and Sarah were well past the age of bearing.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing from the Word of God. Point demonstrated. He was confident (had faith) that what God had promised he would do.

That is exactly what I am arguing against--mustering up faith, and voila!

I pity you. Read the testimony of Josh McDowell (there have been others besides him). He didn't believe Christ had risen from the dead. He denied the deity of Christ. He was a well known skeptic. He did everything in his power to both deny the deity and the resurrection of Christ. He researched the matter thoroughly when he was at university. The more research he did, the more convinced he became, until he could no longer deny the fact that Christ did indeed rise from the dead. It was only after then that Josh McDowell became a Christian. There was nothing supernatural about that. He had to be convinced with the mind that the gospel message was true. If man is not convinced with his mind, intellectually, there is no use in going any further. When witnessing to an unbeliever, if you can't get past the first four or five words of the Bible you may as well quit. "In the beginning God." If he doesn't believe in God, or that God is his Creator, you might as well quit right there. It is a problem of unbelief; a problem of the intellect as well as the heart. And the Holy Spirit is not going to work until that heart is ready to believe.

excuse me here, but to cals its not just 'blind faith" that we reason from the scriptures this way!

We believe that it is the teaching of the Bible concerning areas of Sotierology

And we would appreciate it that IF in the future would not portray it as 'false/bad/stupid/" theology

We could same the same about either "nameless/Arm" theologies

But WONT

 

[DHK]

excuse me here, but to cals its not just 'blind faith" that we reason from the scriptures this way!

We believe that it is the teaching of the Bible concerning areas of Sotierology

And we would appreciate it that IF in the future would not portray it as 'false/bad/stupid/" theology

We could same the same about either "nameless/Arm" theologies

But WONT

Two points.
1. You can say anything you want about "nameless/Arm" theologies here, but I don't know who you are referring to. It won't be me. You will just be blowing in the wind.

2. As I have mentioned before, we have been through five threads now, and not one Calvinist has been able to demonstrate that faith is a gift of God, especially to the unbeliever.
Thus my statement, when you hear something often enough, long enough, you believe it whether it be true or not. You believe it without any basis or reason. And that is blind faith. Do you want me to give some examples of blind faith. I have many. They come primarily from other religions such as Islam, Hinduism, the RCC, and other sources.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Two points.
snip...

Thus my statement, when you hear something often enough, long enough, you believe it whether it be true or not. You believe it without any basis or reason. And that is blind faith. Do you want me to give some examples of blind faith. I have many. They come primarily from other religions such as Islam, Hinduism, the RCC, and other sources.

I know you don't want to hear this DHK, but the RCC isn't another religion. It is a Christian religion - and the very first one I might add.

WM

 

[webdog]

Is faith ever a gift from God?

A spiritual gift to the saved.

 

[humblethinker]

What is it that the Cals would say that normal man could have faith in? Would the Cal's say that the normal man cannot have faith at all (in anything)?

 

[DHK]

I know you don't want to hear this DHK, but the RCC isn't another religion. It is a Christian religion - and the very first one I might add.

WM

If they are a Christian religion then so are the J.W.'s. Both have about the same amount of truth in common; or shall I say error. You can't get saved believing RCC doctrine. You can't get saved believing baptismal regeneration and a salvation by works theology. It never was a Christian religion, is not, and never will be.