God specifically tells us how he gives us faith.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.
Whether you are unsaved or are saved, show me in the Bible where God takes a hypodermic needle and injects faith into you.
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Why did Peter begin to sink?
- Thread starter Winman
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Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.
Whether you are unsaved or are saved, show me in the Bible where God takes a hypodermic needle and injects faith into you.
So then, did Jesus fail in giving Peter enough faith?
That was my point of the question. The problem with peter wasn't about getting saved.
Since faith is merely trust in something, Jesus didn't give Peter anything, Peter's trust was not fully in Jesus.So then, did Jesus fail in giving Peter enough faith?
The spiritual gift of faith spoken of to the church (who are already believers) is a separate issue.
There is also the question of when was Peter saved? Many scholars have debated when the apostles were saved, anywhere from following Jesus to after Christ rose from the grave.
humblethinker
Active Member
What is it that the Cals would say that normal man could have faith in? Would the Cal's say that the normal man cannot have faith at all (in anything)?
Exactly. No believer had the indwelling Holy Spirit until after Jesus ascended. The apostles did not receive the Holy Spirit until after Jesus had risen, ascended, and then returned and breathed the Holy Spirit into them.
Jn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
We know that the disciples all believed (except Judas) from the beginning of his ministry.
Jn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
This was at the wedding where Jesus turned the water into wine. All of his disciples believed on him when they witnessed this miracle except Judas.
If a man must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit to be enabled to believe, how did Jesus's disciples believe on him? They did not receive the Holy Spirit until John chapter 20 when Jesus breathed on them after his resurrection.
And the scriptures show that all the people (and there were multitudes) that believed on Jesus did it without the indwelling Holy Spirit in John chapter 7.
Jn 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Only a few select men in the OT had the Holy Spirit, though many thousands believed. When Jesus preached, many thousands believed on him, yet they did not receive the Holy Spirit until after Jesus was glorified.
So, if a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe, how did all these people believe (and the scriptures clearly say they did) without the Holy Spirit?
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There you go again, misrepresenting what cals believe and teach on this area!
Once again...
the Lord has to place His irrestible Grace into the situation of the Gospel being preached...
God grants unto His own the "ears to hear" they hear the message, and those whom he has applied His grace towards turn to Jesus and get saved, the rest who hear stay spiritually dead in their sins!
God NOT forcing them to believe, He is gracing them so that they can hear and believe!
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Jesus never fails.So then, did Jesus fail in giving Peter enough faith?
The faith didn't originate with Jesus.
Faith is confidence. The object of one's faith is the key. The object of Peter's faith was Christ. But he took his eyes off Christ and began to sink.
Aren't there times in all of our lives when we take our eyes off Christ?
There is a lesson to be learned.
preacher4truth
Active Member
So unless it is shown it's via a hypodermic needle, it's invalid?
Romans 10:17. This verse shows where faith comes from, and it's not from man.
It's from the living, life giving Word that faith comes. Externally outside of man, not internally within. DHK says:
Faith didn't originate from Jesus DHK? He is "the Author and finisher of our faith!" Hebrews 12:2. And again, Romans 10:17, it COMES from HIS WORD.
Everything originates from Him.
- Peace
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Exactly. The fault was with Peter, not Jesus. Peter doubted, Jesus said so. This makes no sense if Jesus gave this faith to Peter. Would Jesus give defective faith to Peter and then rebuke him for doubting? When Jesus said, "O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?", couldn't Peter have turned around and said, "Lord, you only gave me a little faith, it is not my fault that I doubted."?
Sounds silly I know, but if Peter's faith was a gift, Peter could justly blame Jesus for his faith failing.
The disciples at one point asked Jesus to increase their faith. How did Jesus answer?
Lk 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
The disciples asked Jesus for more faith. Did Jesus say, "Sure fellas, here's some more faith!"??
No, Jesus turned it around on them and showed faith was their responsibility. He said if they had even the smallest faith they could say to a sycamine tree to be plucked up and it would happen.
God tells us the truth and he expects us to believe him. To not believe and trust God is to call him a liar.
1 Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
A person who does not believe God's word is calling God a liar. And yet we have some who believe God regenerates a person who is calling him a liar.
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I think you misunderstand DHK. I do not believe he would say any man could believe without God's word, but the believeing itself comes from the man.
Romans 10:17 shows synergism whether you will accept it or not. God doesn't speak to us and his words alone regenerate us. We have to HEAR. We have to BELIEVE.
Hbr 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
If we have no part in believeing, why should we fear? If we can only believe if God enables us, what care or concern on our part could possibly alter the outcome? If your doctrine is true, no amount of fear or concern could possibly alter the outcome, if God regenerates you, you will believe, if God does not regenerate you, you cannot possibly believe. But the author of Hebrews told us to fear, to take diligent care that we do not come short of a promise made to us. And then he explains that the gospel does not profit those who simply hear it, but they must believe it for it to profit them.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The word of God is quick and powerful, it has the ability to regenerate a man. But we have to HEAR his words. We have to LISTEN and BELIEVE. We have to RECEIVE his words. The hearing is our part and responsibility.
1 Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
The word of God only effectually works in those who believe. It doesn't forcibly cause us to believe (though it does persuade and convince), it can only work IF we believe.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
No, I understood him perfectly well.
Faith comes by the Word of Christ. Not by "hearing" but by hearing the life-giving God speak, His Word. by which He also creates all life. So, no, this verse is monergism, it all comes form Him. Underlining "hearing" doesn't make it synergisitic. The life and faith come from the life giver, not from our eardrums.
BTW, the deaf can't "hear" it. There is no power in the "hearing." The power and life originates from the Word, the exact same place faith comes from.
In Hebrews he is consulting those who have already professed faith, thus "let us" (believers).
Jesus is the Author and finisher of our faith, not our ears.
Of course they must believe it, that's the same thing as faith, and the source is Christ, not our ears. It comes by hearing the Word of Christ. That's where it comes from, in other words, it's not in you, the life is in Him.
He has given to us all things that pertain to life....ALL things. 2 Peter 1:3. He granted it, gave it, bestowed it onto us. It all comes from Him.
Jesus is the Author of our faith in that he is the Son of God who died for our sins and rose from the dead. If Jesus did not do this, we could not possibly believe on him. And he is the finisher in that when we do believe he gives unto us eternal life.
Nowhere do the scriptures say man cannot (meaning unable) hear the word of God. In fact, Jesus himself said the dead (spiritually) can hear his voice, and those that hear (believe) shall live.
Jn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jesus said the dead can hear his voice, and those that hear shall live. Your doctrine denies what Jesus said. Your doctrine says a person must be made alive to hear Jesus's words.
Did Jesus say?
"The hour is coming, and now is, when the living shall hear his voice, and those that hear shall live?"
That is not what Jesus said is it? And it wouldn't make sense would it? Does someone need to be made alive so he can hear and be made alive? Pure NONSENSE, yet that is what Calvinism teaches.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
The power is in His word, not the hearing.
He sets us apart by His Spirit, quickens us, enables to obey, sprinkles us with teh redeeming blood.
But you're onto another issue now, skipping the proof of the previous replies.
is this the very same NONSENSE that jesus referred to when he said that those who saw and heard him could not see or hear really what he was saying to them?
That He spoke in parables, and they could not understand, but those of the Kingdom would be able to understand?
That God had chosen to give them wisdom to hear and understand it?
that kind of nonsense?
I don't fall into any camp. I suppose that both Wycliffe and John Huss were Calvinists too?
I grasp it. You want to believe something that is not taught in Scripture.
I have challenged you to defend it Scripturally and you can't. You blindly believe Calvin instead of Scripture. That is not sola scriptura is it?
I do. You believe that faith is a gift from God, and also that regeneration precedes salvation. I don't believe either of those, and I don't believe that either one can be demonstrated in Scripture.
preacher4truth
Active Member
That is Jesus being Sovereign, blinding some lest they believe.
YES! The power is in his word. I agree 100%. But we must believe, we must receive for it to effectually work in us.
1 Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Faith is like the light switch on your wall. The electrical power is there waiting. It is powerful, it can light all the lights in your home or power all the appliances. But it cannot flow if the circuit is open. Faith is like flipping the switch, closing the circuit and allowing the powerful current to flow. The switch has absolutely no power whatsoever, but the switch enables the powerful current to flow.
The gospel has the power to save. It is just like the electricity in your home waiting to flow. But we must believe God's word for it to "effectually worketh" in us. That is exactly what 1 Thessalonians 2:13 says, and that is what those verses in Hebrews showed also.
1 Thessalonians does not say that the word of God effectually works to enable us to believe, it says it effectually works "IN YOU THAT BELIEVE".
You can read as well as I, isn't that what 1 Thes 2:13 says? Yes or No?
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Slow down and reread the passage.
These are two separate instances of receiving the Word. The first half of the verse, is the point of salvation, Paul recalling their conversion. The second half? It's how the Word works in the life of the believer after salvation,"in you THAT believe, not that "believed," or "when you believed," "in you that believe." "You that believe" is referring to those already saved.
Therefore, your entire premise is all wrong.
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