Timtoolman
New Member
Scott: Bible calls it a gift yet you say it isn’t.
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That is untrue Tim. You should apologize for mischaracterizing my statement like that. I said it was a choice between gifts... which is pretty much what you've been arguing. The difference is that you think somehow the saved figure out to choose the seemingly less attractive gift with great promise while I say that God miraculously instills the good will and "sight" in us beforehand.
Timtoolman: sorry Scott I am right on. Choose your words differently then if you want to portray something else. And we are not talking about choosing between gifts as if that really makes a difference.
Scott: Which way should I go, Bible or Scott?!
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False dichotomy in this case.
Timtoolman; nope it is scripture or you Scott I pick scripture.
F
Scott: You were first given the will... the sight to see that gift as desirable. Many were offered the same gift. Many knew that their lives were filled with sin... and turned away.
Timtoolman: answered ad nausea. You are argueing against your own case and don’t even know it.
Scott: You will have to prove it illogical... your declarations fall well short of proof.
But to the point, God does a work in us first... that work manifests itself in the "acts/choices" of faith and belief.
Where you have a human process of deliberation... I place a divine miracle.
Timtoolman: nope Scott wrong again where does it state that God does a work first that makes a man accept. You are lost because there are none. The call is clear, it is clearly too all and it is sincere. I do not accept your terms that accepting a gift while other turn it away is a work. That is yours and Calvinist alolne. Keep it and be happy. I willl not drink the coolaid.
Scott: I heard the gospel... and it wasn't nearly the first time. But God acted on me. I had a conviction and desire where there had been none before... then submitted and accepted in the faith of a child.
Timtoolman: Lets look at all thworks you have done. First you heard, that is a work.Then you had a desire, your desire is also a work and then you did the work of submitting and accepting. Sound rediculus! You bet, welcome to Calvinist theology!
Scott: I don't know how typical I am of calvinists everywhere... I seem to be pretty consistent with most of the ones here.
Timtoolman: You are and I would say that what you say is very trypically received as I do. You don’t like it but it is the words you use.
Scott: But you do Tim... you won't admit it but when you assign the critical factor in an individual's salvation to their independent, reasoned good choice... that is a work. I know that it is tempting to try to change the definition so that this act isn't work... but it still is by any legitimate treatment.
Timtoolman: when I ask others who are saved or not saved about this logic of Calvinism the laugher is deafening! Carry on with your redefining of terms just don’t expect rational. Intelligent and logical people to buy it.
Scott: If it isn't functional until you make a choice... then it is NOT finished. It is always open-ended and dependent on someone's good choice to believe.
Timtoolman: it is functional and complete. Just like any other gift. The gift is finished completed and me receiving it does not allow me to glory in the producing of the gift. You logic is crazy here. If I choose to drive a car and get in it doe my choice allow me to take credit for the building of the car. Nope. Your logic not mine!
Scott: You still make the critical thing in salvation human good will. You say the offer is there but completely ineffectual til the magic potion of man's good choice is applied.
You work in cars so you probably know that some adhesives activate with a catalyst. The catalyst isn't the largest part... it isn't even the part that does the bonding... but it is the most critical part. Without the catalyst, the glue is worthless.
I believe that regeneration is the catalyst. You seem to be arguing that a sinner's good choice is the catalyst.
Timtoolman: no Scott your redefining of terms has led you down this path of strawmen and false hood. I know that I have said that God gave of His son freely. I did not will Him too. That God has done all the work for man to be saved and to believe. That is bible. It is done and choice allows no man to glory in the finished product. The difference is none other then free will. lAll have that freedom to choose. The answer you are looking for has lbeen in front of you and all Calvinist and yet you reject it for this nonsense that recieiving allows man to take credit for the igift.
Scott: Why do you believe that? If you were good enough to make that initial good decision then why aren't you good enough to sanctify yourself. You have the Bible. Why do you need the Holy Spirit working within you since the good needed to make
Timtoolman: Scott now you are better and deeper then that. That really is kids stuff. Lets keep this on an adult level. Do I really need to even acknowledge that as a legit questions?!!!
Scott: I can only speak for myself Tim. However, John appears to me to have a better biblical basis for what he believes than most of his opponents here.
Timtoolman: so you agree that God is the author of sin. Answer that for me if you answer no other question. The fact that you would even say that leds me to believe that you are pretty much hopeless. I am sorry but Johnp has declared God responsiable for sin. YHou even come close to agreeing with that then my friend you are in need of a real heart check!!
Scott: Because you correctly said before that man could not do any good that God would recognize. He is the only standard of good that counts.
Timtoolman: nope you did not take time to read the post. I said compared to Christ who is the only perfect man without sin and alwys dong the Lords will all our rightouesness is as filthy rags. Including yours and mine.
Scott: Then why do you believe it was the catalyst in your salvation rather than God being the initiator?
Timtoolman:Answered over and over!
Scott: You haven't demonstrated that it is a straw man... just because your position cannot provide a biblical answer isn't a reason to disqualify the question.
Timtoolman: sure I have. I will take logice and Bible everytime. If you say it is dark out and its 1 in the afternoon and the sun is shining britely I cannot convince you other wise because you refuse truth and logic. Y our Calvinist theology has done the very thing that you claim God does to the non elect. Blind them!
Scott: I gave that to you Tim. You are invited to take my comment line by line and answer.
Timtoolman: I already did and showed you that spiritual death shows a broken fellowship not a God does not know man or man does not know God thing. You def. if it goes further is not biblical. Again you will never win anyone without an honest defining of terms and words.
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That is untrue Tim. You should apologize for mischaracterizing my statement like that. I said it was a choice between gifts... which is pretty much what you've been arguing. The difference is that you think somehow the saved figure out to choose the seemingly less attractive gift with great promise while I say that God miraculously instills the good will and "sight" in us beforehand.
Timtoolman: sorry Scott I am right on. Choose your words differently then if you want to portray something else. And we are not talking about choosing between gifts as if that really makes a difference.
Scott: Which way should I go, Bible or Scott?!
________________________________________
False dichotomy in this case.
Timtoolman; nope it is scripture or you Scott I pick scripture.
F
Scott: You were first given the will... the sight to see that gift as desirable. Many were offered the same gift. Many knew that their lives were filled with sin... and turned away.
Timtoolman: answered ad nausea. You are argueing against your own case and don’t even know it.
Scott: You will have to prove it illogical... your declarations fall well short of proof.
But to the point, God does a work in us first... that work manifests itself in the "acts/choices" of faith and belief.
Where you have a human process of deliberation... I place a divine miracle.
Timtoolman: nope Scott wrong again where does it state that God does a work first that makes a man accept. You are lost because there are none. The call is clear, it is clearly too all and it is sincere. I do not accept your terms that accepting a gift while other turn it away is a work. That is yours and Calvinist alolne. Keep it and be happy. I willl not drink the coolaid.
Scott: I heard the gospel... and it wasn't nearly the first time. But God acted on me. I had a conviction and desire where there had been none before... then submitted and accepted in the faith of a child.
Timtoolman: Lets look at all thworks you have done. First you heard, that is a work.Then you had a desire, your desire is also a work and then you did the work of submitting and accepting. Sound rediculus! You bet, welcome to Calvinist theology!
Scott: I don't know how typical I am of calvinists everywhere... I seem to be pretty consistent with most of the ones here.
Timtoolman: You are and I would say that what you say is very trypically received as I do. You don’t like it but it is the words you use.
Scott: But you do Tim... you won't admit it but when you assign the critical factor in an individual's salvation to their independent, reasoned good choice... that is a work. I know that it is tempting to try to change the definition so that this act isn't work... but it still is by any legitimate treatment.
Timtoolman: when I ask others who are saved or not saved about this logic of Calvinism the laugher is deafening! Carry on with your redefining of terms just don’t expect rational. Intelligent and logical people to buy it.
Scott: If it isn't functional until you make a choice... then it is NOT finished. It is always open-ended and dependent on someone's good choice to believe.
Timtoolman: it is functional and complete. Just like any other gift. The gift is finished completed and me receiving it does not allow me to glory in the producing of the gift. You logic is crazy here. If I choose to drive a car and get in it doe my choice allow me to take credit for the building of the car. Nope. Your logic not mine!
Scott: You still make the critical thing in salvation human good will. You say the offer is there but completely ineffectual til the magic potion of man's good choice is applied.
You work in cars so you probably know that some adhesives activate with a catalyst. The catalyst isn't the largest part... it isn't even the part that does the bonding... but it is the most critical part. Without the catalyst, the glue is worthless.
I believe that regeneration is the catalyst. You seem to be arguing that a sinner's good choice is the catalyst.
Timtoolman: no Scott your redefining of terms has led you down this path of strawmen and false hood. I know that I have said that God gave of His son freely. I did not will Him too. That God has done all the work for man to be saved and to believe. That is bible. It is done and choice allows no man to glory in the finished product. The difference is none other then free will. lAll have that freedom to choose. The answer you are looking for has lbeen in front of you and all Calvinist and yet you reject it for this nonsense that recieiving allows man to take credit for the igift.
Scott: Why do you believe that? If you were good enough to make that initial good decision then why aren't you good enough to sanctify yourself. You have the Bible. Why do you need the Holy Spirit working within you since the good needed to make
Timtoolman: Scott now you are better and deeper then that. That really is kids stuff. Lets keep this on an adult level. Do I really need to even acknowledge that as a legit questions?!!!
Scott: I can only speak for myself Tim. However, John appears to me to have a better biblical basis for what he believes than most of his opponents here.
Timtoolman: so you agree that God is the author of sin. Answer that for me if you answer no other question. The fact that you would even say that leds me to believe that you are pretty much hopeless. I am sorry but Johnp has declared God responsiable for sin. YHou even come close to agreeing with that then my friend you are in need of a real heart check!!
Scott: Because you correctly said before that man could not do any good that God would recognize. He is the only standard of good that counts.
Timtoolman: nope you did not take time to read the post. I said compared to Christ who is the only perfect man without sin and alwys dong the Lords will all our rightouesness is as filthy rags. Including yours and mine.
Scott: Then why do you believe it was the catalyst in your salvation rather than God being the initiator?
Timtoolman:Answered over and over!
Scott: You haven't demonstrated that it is a straw man... just because your position cannot provide a biblical answer isn't a reason to disqualify the question.
Timtoolman: sure I have. I will take logice and Bible everytime. If you say it is dark out and its 1 in the afternoon and the sun is shining britely I cannot convince you other wise because you refuse truth and logic. Y our Calvinist theology has done the very thing that you claim God does to the non elect. Blind them!
Scott: I gave that to you Tim. You are invited to take my comment line by line and answer.
Timtoolman: I already did and showed you that spiritual death shows a broken fellowship not a God does not know man or man does not know God thing. You def. if it goes further is not biblical. Again you will never win anyone without an honest defining of terms and words.
