Why do people reject the gospel?

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> By the way any correct grammatical reading of Ephesians 2:8 shows that faith is a gift.

(ESV) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
(ASV) for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
(DRB) For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.
(HCSB) For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift--
(KJVR) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(LITV) For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;

On the contrary, this (or that) is singular referring to God's grace. If faith were a "gift" along with God's grace, the text would have read "these". </font>[/QUOTE]You have proven yourself incorrect. Faith is singular! Does this passage say that grace is a gift? No the grace spoken of here is an act of God.

 

[webdog]

Yes the passage does say that grace is a gift. God's grace was the giving of His Son! What greater "gift" is there than that? It is not referred to as an "act", but a gift. God offers His grace to those who accept (faith). To paraphrase we are saved by God's grace ALONE, through our faith in Him. This is not something we can do to merit it by works.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Faith is not the gift in Ephesians 2:8. Grace is the gift. By grace have ye been saved... it is the gift...

 

[webdog]

This question is answered by the Greek text: τῃ γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως· και τουτο ουκ εξ ὑμων· Θεου το δωρον, ουκ εξ εργων· ἱνα μη τις καυχησηται· “By this grace ye are saved through faith; and This (τουτο, this salvation) not of you; it is the gift of God, not of works: so that no one can boast.” “The relative τουτο, this, which is in the neuter gender, cannot stand for πιστις, faith, which is the feminine; but it has the whole sentence that goes before for its antecedent.” Adam Clarke

And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered “that” - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word “faith” - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to “the salvation by grace” of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word “that” (τοῦτο touto) refers to “faith” (πίστις pistis); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance. - Albert Barnes

By grace ye are saved through faith - Grace, without any respect to human worthiness, confers the glorious gift. Faith, with an empty hand, and without any pretence to personal desert, receives the heavenly blessing. And this is not of yourselves - This refers to the whole preceding clause, That ye are saved through faith, is the gift of God. - John Wesley

For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in Eph_2:5 and so with the article.
Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in Eph_2:5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours.
And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work. - Robertson's Word Pictures

It is the gift of God. The salvation is not due to ourselves, but is God's gift. The grammatical construction of the Greek does not allow us to make "faith" the subject of the last clause. It is not "faith," but salvation through the faith, which is the gift of God. So says John Wesley in his Notes: "This refers to the previous clause, That you are saved, etc." - PNT

 

[Timtoolman]

Scott I gave you two reasons from the Bible. I can't read people's minds. I say again can a unregenerated man do good? Yes. Can he reconize good. A Christ who paid the price, understand the gospel unto salvation, know and understand what is good, heaven or hell.
I believe the Holy Spirit comes upon a person and reveals the truth. Picking does not enable them to live it, the Holy Spirit does.
I am not sure what answer you want as I said I am not a mind reader and neither are you.
Your assumption that man cannot do anything spiritual to please God I think is correct. I do argue very strongly that God offering the gift of eternal life and a person accepting makes that a good work or work of any kind. Otherwise you have done some work towards salvation using your calvinistic doctrine.
Scott you did not answer my question regarding God being the author of sin as you know JohnP claims. And after that I thank you wholeheartly for saying he has a better grip on the bible then I do, or something like that. Cause if that is your believ after a man has declared God a sinner. Then I would not even want to fellowship with you. I believe there is a line of no return and when someone declares God the author of sin he has crossed it.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by webdog:
Yes the passage does say that grace is a gift. God's grace was the giving of His Son! What greater "gift" is there than that? It is not referred to as an "act", but a gift. God offers His grace to those who accept (faith).

IOW's, you are saying that God's [unmerited favor] was the giving of His son... that was not an "act"... offered to those who by the independent merit of their own decision accept it?

To paraphrase we are saved by God's grace ALONE, through our faith in Him. This is not something we can do to merit it by works.

Except for the work of decision making... except for the work of reaching out to choose and accept that gift as opposed to all others which by any definition is work.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Scott I gave you two reasons from the Bible.

Tim,... no you really didn't give two reasons from the Bible that answer the question. There is a good reason from the Bible..."election", God's good pleasure. But you didn't give that.

I can't read people's minds.

I am not asking you to. I am asking you to accept the condition of man described in the Bible.

I say again can a unregenerated man do good? Yes.

Good in what sense? Good in the human perspective? Like say an atheist that doesn't lie?

My answer to that is that his "moral good" isn't good. It is done for the wrong reason... his own glory, not God's.

Can he reconize good. A Christ who paid the price, understand the gospel unto salvation, know and understand what is good, heaven or hell.

So why do some "recognize good" while others don't? Simple question. Do they do it themselves or is God responsible for their ability to recognize the specific "good" of the offer of salvation?

I believe the Holy Spirit comes upon a person and reveals the truth. Picking does not enable them to live it, the Holy Spirit does.

In light of God's predestination, foreknowledge, and election of the saints... Can man thwart the perfect will of God?

I am not sure what answer you want as I said I am not a mind reader and neither are you.

I gave you two options. Either is fine. Why do you evade giving one or the other? You either believe that an individual's ability to "choose" good merits his salvation by empowering the "grace" of God to save him or you believe that the Holy Spirit must be the source of that ability.

Your assumption that man cannot do anything spiritual to please God I think is correct. I do argue very strongly that God offering the gift of eternal life and a person accepting makes that a good work or work of any kind. Otherwise you have done some work towards salvation using your calvinistic doctrine.

Actually the opposite. Calvinism takes credit away from man. It is regeneration and the empowerment by the Holy Spirit that enables men to do anything pleasing to God... including repenting unto salvation.

Scott you did not answer my question regarding God being the author of sin as you know JohnP claims.

I think I did. Man is responsible. His choices are real. Man is fully and totally responsible for sin. God said he was not the author of sin... and I believe it. He said He doesn't cause men to sin... and I believe it.

My difference with you isn't on why men are lost. It is on why they are saved.

And after that I thank you wholeheartly for saying he has a better grip on the bible then I do, or something like that.

I would have to see the context... but he does have more biblical idea for why men ultimately choose Christ than anything you've presented so far. He hasn't avoided a simple, biblically answerable question just because it disagrees with preconceptions about man's free will and authority concerning salvation.

I believe there is a line of no return and when someone declares God the author of sin he has crossed it.

I agree. Frankly, I have been interacting with you, not Johnp and won't claim to have read every word he has written.

God allowed sin. He foreknew that it would happen even before he created man... in fact, the plan depends on it occurring. Yet God said what He said... and said He didn't author or cause sin. That is good enough for me as is the fact that He said "there is none righteous" and that He chose the elect from the foundation of the world.

My job is to adjust my views and beliefs to scripture, not adjust scripture to my views.

 

[Timtoolman]

Scott.........have answered everyone of your questions! EVERYONE scripturally! YOu have rejected it. Do not go on lieing that I have not. I am sorry it does not meet your strawman so you can go to your calvinist book of replies but your have to get oever yourself. I am not going to repeat any of my answers again.
You also know very well what Johnp has been espouseing and now you are trying to decieve me to think otherwise. I have lost a lot of respect for you over this conversation Scott.
YOu have been answered, held accountable for you missrepresentaion of scripture and all I get is...YOu don't understand calvinism, or you didn't answer my question (which means I didn't geive the aone you wanted ).
Know what i will go back and answer. If you want to continue a civil conversatioin you might want to start out with why you continuely lie about my answers!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Timtoolman, some here on BB are spiritually deaf to the truths as set forth in God's Holy Word. They hold to confessions and Synods and anything that opposes the truth that is written in the Bible.

Sow a seed, water that seed, and get out of the garden and see if God brings an increase. Too much seed in one spot will choke out the seed. Too much water will drown the seed.

sfiC

Be encouraged, my Brother. There are many on here who will receive the Word with joy and it will bring forth much fruit.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
Yes the passage does say that grace is a gift. God's grace was the giving of His Son! What greater "gift" is there than that? It is not referred to as an "act", but a gift. God offers His grace to those who accept (faith).

IOW's, you are saying that God's [unmerited favor] was the giving of His son... that was not an "act"... offered to those who by the independent merit of their own decision accept it?

To paraphrase we are saved by God's grace ALONE, through our faith in Him. This is not something we can do to merit it by works.

Except for the work of decision making... except for the work of reaching out to choose and accept that gift as opposed to all others which by any definition is work. </font>[/QUOTE]I copied the replies of those with more understanding of the greek and that passage than me in regards to Ephesians 2:8-9... even a reformed view. What you choose to do with it is up to you, but it is pretty clear (at least to the majority) that faith in the passage, and thoughout the Bible, is not the "gift" of God, but God in loving us so much, offering a way for us to be justified, His Son as the Gift.

 

[webdog]

Except for the work of decision making... except for the work of reaching out to choose and accept that gift as opposed to all others which by any definition is work.

This is so comical, it's sad. Learn what "work" means, then we'll talk.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Timtoolman, some here on BB are spiritually deaf to the truths as set forth in God's Holy Word. They hold to confessions and Synods and anything that opposes the truth that is written in the Bible.

Sow a seed, water that seed, and get out of the garden and see if God brings an increase. Too much seed in one spot will choke out the seed. Too much water will drown the seed.

sfiC

Be encouraged, my Brother. There are many on here who will receive the Word with joy and it will bring forth much fruit.

Thank you Standing. I decided to wait one hour before I responded. However I think I will take your advice. This man sides with a man who says God does indeed cause sin. I have put enough time into this. Anymore would be foolish on my part.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Except for the work of decision making... except for the work of reaching out to choose and accept that gift as opposed to all others which by any definition is work.

This is so comical, it's sad. Learn what "work" means, then we'll talk. </font>[/QUOTE]Web, if that is work then every calvinist has doen some type of work to be saved. The absurdy of it is clear too all, but calvinist.

 

[Timtoolman]

"My job is to adjust my views and beliefs to scripture, not adjust scripture to my views. "

You have failed miserably!

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Scott.........have answered everyone of your questions! EVERYONE scripturally! YOu have rejected it. Do not go on lieing that I have not.

OK... here's the TRUTH... You have not answered the question with a reasonable, biblical answer and if you say you have you are either self-deceived or you know the answer you must give will destroy your position.

I have phrased and re-phrased the question. I have offered answers. I have explained as well as I know how why "free will" is not an answer to why someone exercises free will in one way or another.

You have crossed way over the line in accusing me of lying because I have asked you a question you don't want to answer directly and honestly. That is where we stand Tim. I have asked you a very, very, very fundamental question to this issue and you have evaded answering it at all costs. Why?

In one sense, I sympathize. I used to believe almost exactly what you express here. Doubt plagued me and I never could put together what seemed to be contradictions in scripture. The question I kept asking you, answered biblically, led me to a position that is biblically consistent... and doesn't require scripture to contradict itself. Your system is neither consistent with itself, the definition of words, or scripture... in a word, it is "false".

I am sorry it does not meet your strawman so you can go to your calvinist book of replies but your have to get oever yourself.

You haven't demonstrated any straw man. That is a coward's tactic. Just answer the question or explain why "first/prime cause" for faith is not relevant to sotierology. It is most relevant so to call it a straw man is purely deceptive.

I am not going to repeat any of my answers again.

Praise the Lord.... now maybe try giving a real answer.

You also know very well what Johnp has been espouseing and now you are trying to decieve me to think otherwise.

I thought you weren't a mind reader??? Yet here you accuse me of being a liar because I said I hadn't thoroughly read John's every word.

John can fend for himself. I seem to recall that John and I had a brief disagreement on double predestination but I haven't involved myself in any argument he has made that God is the author of sin. If I happen to... I will be on your side if that is in fact what he is arguing.

I have lost a lot of respect for you over this conversation Scott.

Likewise, you have called me a liar with little if any justification... and also refused to give a direct answer while I have endeavored over and over to answer your questions as honestly and directly as I know how.

YOu have been answered, held accountable for you missrepresentaion of scripture and all I get is...YOu don't understand calvinism, or you didn't answer my question (which means I didn't geive the aone you wanted ).

That is untrue. That is not ALL you get. FTR, you haven't proven that, much less held me accountable for, "missrepresentation of scripture".

You accuse me of lying but this whole emotional, irrational, evasive post is peppered with falsehoods.

Know what i will go back and answer. If you want to continue a civil conversatioin you might want to start out with why you continuely lie about my answers!

I am not lying about your answers... I can't, you haven't given one that actually addresses the question. To be an answer, it would have to actually address the meaning of the question. It was explained to you even using an example that "free will" is not an answer at all.

You probably see the trap you are in and blame me. Well don't. I didn't create that trap. Your belief on this created that trap. When your system can't answer very basic, fundamental questions with a biblically consistent answer then it is time to toss pride aside and scrap that system. Your system cannot give a biblical answer to my question... and that is why I abandoned it.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
"My job is to adjust my views and beliefs to scripture, not adjust scripture to my views. "

You have failed miserably!

Not by anything you have proven. In fact, I would say it is you that has failed until you answer that one simple question with a biblical answer.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Except for the work of decision making... except for the work of reaching out to choose and accept that gift as opposed to all others which by any definition is work.

This is so comical, it's sad. Learn what "work" means, then we'll talk. </font>[/QUOTE]Web, if that is work then every calvinist has doen some type of work to be saved. The absurdy of it is clear too all, but calvinist. </font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps you should learn what work means.

Thoughts are work. The brain employs a chemical process during thought that burns calories. The decision to be saved is either the result of a process of thought (work) or else it came from somewhere else.

I take the work out of it by giving credit for the "good decision" to God.

But you guys would rather scoff than answer the question.

Here's a challenge... find a definition for "work" that would exclude thought processes or decision making.

Here is the first definition given by American Heritage:

"Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something."

Here's Webster's:

"1 : activity in which one exerts strength or faculties to do or perform something: a : sustained physical or mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective or result b : the labor, task, or duty that is one's accustomed means of livelihood c : a specific task, duty, function, or assignment often being a part or phase of some larger activity"

Here's Oxford:

"activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result."

Rather have the Greek? The word is ergon. Here's what Strong's has to say:

"any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind"


I think it time that YOU guys learned that work includes mental effort... and your system requires it in contradiction to scripture.

 

[webdog]

"1 : activity in which one exerts strength or faculties to do or perform something: a : sustained physical or mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective or result b : the labor, task, or duty that is one's accustomed means of livelihood c : a specific task, duty, function, or assignment often being a part or phase of some larger activity"

Achieve
ACHIE'VE, v.t.

1. To perform, or execute; to accomplish; to finish, or carry on to a final close. It is appropriately used for the effect of efforts made by the hand or bodily exertion, as deeds achieved by valor.

2. To gain or obtain, as the result of exertion.

This really sounds like what I do to accept a gift!

 

[webdog]

I think it time that YOU guys learned that work includes mental effort... and your system requires it in contradiction to scripture.

So YOU guys don't need faith in Christ? If so, it's work whether it supposedely was given to you to exercise, or you already had the ability to use it. Cutting down a tree is the same whether I own a saw or you give it to me. This means that EVERYONE who is "elect" has WORKED for salvation. Do I listen to you or the Bible?

 

[OldRegular]

When those who believe that man, rather than God, is sovereign in Salvation understand why some accept the Gospel then they will be able to understand why some reject the Gospel. I have yet to see on this Forum anyone who believes that man is sovereign in his own salvation [that means an Arminian] present a valid reason why some people accept the Gospel while others reject the Gospel.