Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?

[DaveXR650]

Dave the simple answer is free will. Man has been given a limited free will by God that is why we are able to hear the gospel and accept it or reject it. If someone holds to the idea that man can not make the choice to believe then you have to ask why all the admonitions to believe in Christ Jesus.

I know. I have read and I like Jonathan Edwards views on free will. I don't hold free will in very high esteem and I don't think our view of our autonomous freedom is accurate as humans. But I certainly understand. I think this is the biggest sticking point in most people against Calvinism and it is the best argument against it. But not because it's true, but because there is something in our makeup that combined with our modern sense of "self" and freedom make it really tough to accept.

 

[Silverhair]

The first part is easy. We have a free will to reject because that is our default position by nature. We're born with a sinful bent and as soon as we are able we begin to sin. With all of us going off in sin and selfishness and ignoring God is universal and certain. If something isn't done to us we will never change that. Some say persuasion or conviction is needed. Calvinists say it's more. You need to be born again because that's what the Bible says. Some use terms like regeneration or quickening. Even Wesley no less in his great hymn "Long my imprisoned spirit lay, fast bound by sin and natures night. Thine eye diffused a quickening ray. I woke, the dungeon flamed with light. My chains fell off. My heart was free." Notice it's all passive at first and then "I rose, went forth and followed thee".

Man loves to run to sin, that is not in doubt but man also has the ability to reason and make choices. God has set the condition of salvation, faith in His son. Rom 1:20 tells us we have no excuse to not know there is a God and Joh 16:8-9 tells us the Holy Spirit will convict us. Both of these things require that man can think and chose {free will}.

Yes we have to be born again/regenerated but the question is why are we reborn? The bible says it is because we believe the calvinist says it is so that we will believe.

These verses show that it is because we believe / have faith that we are saved.
Rom 10:9; 1Co 1:21; Gal 3:22; Heb 11:6 I am quite sure I could find others but what I do not find is what the calvinist requires.

 

[Silverhair]

I know. I have read and I like Jonathan Edwards views on free will. I don't hold free will in very high esteem and I don't think our view of our autonomous freedom is accurate as humans. But I certainly understand. I think this is the biggest sticking point in most people against Calvinism and it is the best argument against it. But not because it's true, but because there is something in our makeup that combined with our modern sense of "self" and freedom make it really tough to accept.

But and this is my biggest sticking point with calvinism, if man does not have the free will to chose faith in Christ Jesus that means that God has to pick all those that believe. At this point you are going yes that's right. But the other side of that is that all those that are not picked by God are condemned by nothing they have done, remember we are all sinners. God could have saved them but chose not to. Now I ask you does that sound like the God who is love?

 

[DaveXR650]

But and this is my biggest sticking point with calvinism, if man does not have the free will to chose faith in Christ Jesus that means that God has to pick all those that believe. At this point you are going yes that's right. But the other side of that is that all those that are not picked by God are condemned by nothing they have done, remember we are all sinners. God could have saved them but chose not to. Now I ask you does that sound like the God who is love?

Calvinists freely claim that the theology is a system that has no meaning unless it's taken as a whole. "Those that are not picked by God are condemned by nothing they have done"? Like John McEnroe, the tennis player used to say "You cannot be serious". How about a life spent if not opposing God, at least slighting and ignoring, rejecting Christ, breaking clearly revealed laws that are repeated in many ways, pursuing lust, perversion, violence, hatred, Not to mention duties not done; looking out for the poor, protecting the weak, honoring parents and those in authority and so on. The great mystery here is why God saves anyone.

 

[DaveXR650]

God has set the condition of salvation, faith in His son. Rom 1:20 tells us we have no excuse to not know there is a God and Joh 16:8-9 tells us the Holy Spirit will convict us. Both of these things require that man can think and chose {free will}.

I admit that Calvinism is split here. Many Calvinists believe that calling faith a "condition" of salvation is a heresy. I say it's alright to do that if by "condition" you mean it like Edwards meant it. Just that without it you don't have salvation. Also if you just mean by faith the agreeing to and relying on Christ and what he has done for you, the coming to Christ, the venturing of your soul upon him as the only means for forgiveness. In that case it is a condition. And I also believe that faith itself is given to us - even though WE are the one's who believe.

Also remember that nature does reveal that there is a Creator but never is it suggested that knowledge from nature is sufficient to bring a person to salvation. If you spend much time in nature you do know God made it. But from observing our fallen world what I observe from nature is that nature is cruel, heartless and does not tolerate weakness or stupidity. We have to depend on God to reveal himself to us.

 

[Silverhair]

Calvinists freely claim that the theology is a system that has no meaning unless it's taken as a whole. "Those that are not picked by God are condemned by nothing they have done"? Like John McEnroe, the tennis player used to say "You cannot be serious". How about a life spent if not opposing God, at least slighting and ignoring, rejecting Christ, breaking clearly revealed laws that are repeated in many ways, pursuing lust, perversion, violence, hatred, Not to mention duties not done; looking out for the poor, protecting the weak, honoring parents and those in authority and so on. The great mystery here is why God saves anyone.

When I said "condemned by nothing they have done" I meant differently than those pick out by God. I thought that you would understand that, my bad, should have made that clear.

Actually it is not a mystery that God saves anyone as that was His intent from the start. The mystery to me is that a certain group would think that He only wanted a select group to be saved as that is not what the bible tells us.

 

[Silverhair]

I admit that Calvinism is split here. Many Calvinists believe that calling faith a "condition" of salvation is a heresy. I say it's alright to do that if by "condition" you mean it like Edwards meant it. Just that without it you don't have salvation. Also if you just mean by faith the agreeing to and relying on Christ and what he has done for you, the coming to Christ, the venturing of your soul upon him as the only means for forgiveness. In that case it is a condition. And I also believe that faith itself is given to us - even though WE are the one's who believe.

Also remember that nature does reveal that there is a Creator but never is it suggested that knowledge from nature is sufficient to bring a person to salvation. If you spend much time in nature you do know God made it. But from observing our fallen world what I observe from nature is that nature is cruel, heartless and does not tolerate weakness or stupidity. We have to depend on God to reveal himself to us.

Dave I will admit that by times you do confuse me. On one hand you say man has to do certain things "agreeing to and relying on Christ...coming to Christ...etc" But then you say that God has to give you this faith. The two do not compute.

Faith as understood in the bible is " In theology, the assent of the mind or understanding to the truth of what God has revealed." Webster

If you are given this faith, as calvinists would have it, then it is not your faith, it is not you believing but God believing for you. And this brings us back to the same problem as I have pointed out before.

If only those that believe are saved and God has to give you this faith so you will be saved then it is God that withholds said faith from the vast majority of mankind and thus condemns them to hell.

If God is LOVE, just as the bible tells us and He wants all mankind to be saved, which the bible also tells us and He has the ability to save all mankind, which He could as He is sovereign then there must be another reason why most of mankind is not saved. And the reason, as I have pointed out many times, is that man has a God given free will so he can accept or reject God. That is the condition that Go has made and it is right there in the bible.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[DaveXR650]

When I said "condemned by nothing they have done" I meant differently than those pick out by God. I thought that you would understand that, my bad, should have made that clear.

OK. So if Bill and Ted run around getting into trouble together why should Bill be of the elect and Ted goes to hell? That's a good point. I don't know. The only thing I know for sure is that your point is valid for anyone who believes any level of conviction or any kind of help is needed by God in order for someone to get saved. If Bill got more persuasion than Ted due to conviction by the Holy Spirit the charge can still be made. Even if Bill happened to live near someone who kept bothering him to come to the Bible study and Ted didn't was that fair to Ted?

I do think your point is well taken against my standard Calvinist comeback in the earlier post but if you are concerned about God's fairness I don't think it solves anything. Honestly, if you go far enough with your logic any kind of grace is unfair to the others who don't receive it. The only "fair" religion is one where there are clear external works to be done or not done and then you do them.

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave I will admit that by times you do confuse me. On one hand you say man has to do certain things "agreeing to and relying on Christ...coming to Christ...etc" But then you say that God has to give you this faith. The two do not compute.

You think that's bad. I confuse me. It probably won't be any help but my answer would be that the work of God is on our will. We are enlightened or regenerated and then enabled to believe because our will and nature has changed. Thus faith is a gift but believing is something you do. Also remember Calvinists are all over the place on this. Some believe that all this is directly given to you and you just discover that you believe. I don't go that far and I don't think the WCF does either. WCF chapter 10 points 1 and 2 explain this somewhat.

 

[Silverhair]

OK. So if Bill and Ted run around getting into trouble together why should Bill be of the elect and Ted goes to hell? That's a good point. I don't know. The only thing I know for sure is that your point is valid for anyone who believes any level of conviction or any kind of help is needed by God in order for someone to get saved. If Bill got more persuasion than Ted due to conviction by the Holy Spirit the charge can still be made. Even if Bill happened to live near someone who kept bothering him to come to the Bible study and Ted didn't was that fair to Ted?

I do think your point is well taken against my standard Calvinist comeback in the earlier post but if you are concerned about God's fairness I don't think it solves anything. Honestly, if you go far enough with your logic any kind of grace is unfair to the others who don't receive it. The only "fair" religion is one where there are clear external works to be done or not done and then you do them.

Oh I do not think God has to be fair, as some want to have it. But and this is what I think calvinists miss, God has to be JUST. And because God is just He deals with all on a level playing field. Remember we are all sinners and none of us deserve salvation but it is available to all.

For us that have the opportunity to hear the gospel many think that is the only way that someone can be saved but I do not think it is wise to limit what God can do. Many that live in closed countries have been saved having never heard the gospel message.

When you say the my logic would lead grace to be unfair. Me thinks you are missing something there Dave. It is the calvinist logic that God only gives "irresistible grace" to a select few. So it is the calvinist theology that would make God unfair. The non-calvinist view is that Gods' grace is given to all through the convicting of the Holy Spirit.

If you question what I have just said think about this.
Paul said "For by grace you have been saved" so if it is only through Gods' grace that we can be saved and if God only gives that grace to a select few {Calvinist irresistible grace} and then says well because you did not get that grace then you can not be saved.
So which view do you think makes God "fair" calvinist or non-calvinist.

 

[DaveXR650]

When you say the my logic would lead grace to be unfair. Me thinks you are missing something there Dave. It is the calvinist logic that God only gives "irresistible grace" to a select few. So it is the calvinist theology that would make God unfair. The non-calvinist view is that Gods' grace is given to all through the convicting of the Holy Spirit.

Both of us are giving standard arguments that have been used since Calvinism was actually defined and written down. You sound like the early Baptist Thomas Grantham. And that is not an insult as I greatly respect his writings. I don't have any other thing to add here so you are going to have to decide what you're going to believe according to your own free will. Wait. What am I saying?

 

[Silverhair]

Both of us are giving standard arguments that have been used since Calvinism was actually defined and written down. You sound like the early Baptist Thomas Grantham. And that is not an insult as I greatly respect his writings. I don't have any other thing to add here so you are going to have to decide what you're going to believe according to your own free will. Wait. What am I saying?

Thanks for the complement, and the good laugh. See I knew you would come around to the free will side.

I am sure that we will have more reasoned interactions as time goes on. Till then I bid you adieu.

 

[Dave G]

so the "non elect" can also be saved?

No, and it appears to me that you've misunderstood what the Scriptures develop in the details.
There is no such thing as God saving anyone who is "non-elect".

For example, Paul's purpose and reason for being who he was and doing what God did through him, was this:

" Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." ( 2 Timothy 2:10 ).

Also, the Lord had Paul write letters specifically addressing God's children as "the elect",
as well as the Lord Jesus Himself referring to His sheep as "the elect".

See 1 Peter 1:1-2,
Romans 8:33
Luke 18:7
Matthew 24:31-33
Mark 3:20

 

[Iconoclast]

Have to agree on the wishy washy type of preaching that we find in many churches. I was just fortunate to not grow up with that type.

What I have read, and it is limited, I have found to just push what they think. But that is to be expected. I was just always taught that the bible was the bedrock of my faith. People can have their ideas about what the bible says and some can make those ideas sound good and even compelling, but if when I hear or read them I get that not quite right feeling then sorry not for me.
I think CH Spurgeon said it best:
"DISCERNMENT is not simply telling the difference between what is Right and Wrong; rather, it is the difference between Right and almost right."

Here is another quote from CHS that I really like:
"My faith rests not in what I am, or shall be, or feel, or know, but in what Christ is, in what He has done and in what He is now doing for me."

As you may guess I do like Spurgeon, he was baptist after all. And it may surprise you but I have listened to a number of sermons by Paul Washer. He is Godly in his preaching but I can not agree with all the he says.

Look up Albert N. Martin and Geoff Thomas on sermonaudio.

 

[timdabap]

Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?

The “Reformed/Calvinists” teach, that God has from eternity past, before the foundation of the world, “elected” some to eternal life, while damning the rest of the human race to eternal punishment. These “elect” have been “chosen” in Jesus Christ, and they WILL come to faith in the Lord. God has so “Enabled” their “will”, that they cannot “reject” His “Saving Grace”, and WILL be saved.

IF, this teaching is Biblical, then why do we read, for example, in the context of salvation, Paul say in 2 Corinthians chapter 5, “Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we PERSUADE men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences” (verse 11)? The word “persuade” means, “to move by argument, entreaty, or expostulation to a belief, position, or course of action. To plead with”. IF, the “men” here means only the “elect”, who WILL come to Saving Faith in Jesus Christ, then WHY do these need to be PLEADED with? Not only so, but Paul goes on to say, “Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were PLEADING (παρακᾰλέω, invite, appeal to, encourage, exhort) through us: we implore (δέομαι, long for, beg) you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God” (verse 20).

It is ABSURD that those who have been PREDESTINED before the foundation of the world, to be the ELECT of God, who WILL come to Jesus for salvation, because God has to DETERMINED it, should be PLEADED with, and APPEALED to, and EXHORTED, and BEGGED, to be “RECONCILED” with God.

In Luke 13:24, Jesus Himself says, “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able”. The Greek verb used here, “ἀγωνίζομαι”, for CONTENDING, FIGHTING, STRUGGLE. Or, as the Christian Standard Bible reads, “Make every effort”.

This language shows beyond any doubt, to those who don’t have a theological bent, that both Paul and Jesus Christ are speaking to the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, and NOT only the ELECT! The ELECT have no FREE WILL of their own, and really have NO SAY in whether they are saved or not, as God has already DETERMINED this for them, even before the world was Created. So we are told by the “Reformed/Calvinists”.

But, the truth is, that the Infallible Word of God, the Holy Bible, is AGAINST the FALSE teaching known as ELECTION to salvation, which is supposed to be UNCONDITIONAL!

Why does an elect need to be persuaded ?
Well, you are an elect, no doubt.
But you resist the idea that God is sovereign and needs no help at all from anybody as to your eternal salvation, that He did this on His own for you, and the reason you are resisting is because that is the teaching you have been exposed to, just like Jews were exposed to the idea that the law gives them righteousness before God, and the Greeks (Gentiles) are into pantheism, or gnosticism, in the first century, or parts of it.
So, the elect needs to be persuaded, not that believing will result in their glorious eternity with Christ, but because believing will help them understand better and to worship God in spirit, and in truth.
That's why.

 

[timdabap]

How can Luke 13.24 refer only to the elect?

Let me answer that with a Bible verse:

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:15

 

[SavedByGrace]

Why does an elect need to be persuaded ?
Well, you are an elect, no doubt.
But you resist the idea that God is sovereign and needs no help at all from anybody as to your eternal salvation, that He did this on His own for you, and the reason you are resisting is because that is the teaching you have been exposed to, just like Jews were exposed to the idea that the law gives them righteousness before God, and the Greeks (Gentiles) are into pantheism, or gnosticism, in the first century, or parts of it.
So, the elect needs to be persuaded, not that believing will result in their glorious eternity with Christ, but because believing will help them understand better and to worship God in spirit, and in truth.
That's why.

I am exposed to unbiblical rubbish here in BB by the so called "reformed"!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Let me answer that with a Bible verse:

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:15

so what? looks like you guys take PLEASURE in the eternal suffering of the lost!!!

 

[JonC]

Why the need to be "reformed" anyway? what is wrong with being a simple, Bible-believing, Christian? Neither Jesus Christ, nor Paul, nor any of the other NT Writers, were "reformed"! This is just a smoke-screen to hide some very dodgy teachings!

With your many replies, as usual, you fail to answer the OP. I suppose I should not expect any different!

Because some prefer RCC doctrine but think it needed to be changed. That is what "reformed" means. The Reformers did not do away with RCC doctrine but sought to reform it....to make changes in order to improve it.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Because some prefer RCC doctrine but think it needed to be changed. That is what "reformed" means. The Reformers did not do away with RCC doctrine but sought to reform it....to make changes in order to improve it.

The Reformation was a departure from the teaching of the RCC especially with salvation and the authority of the Bible amongst other things