Why don't Baptists believe Acts 2:38 literally?

[Moriah]

Moriah has on occasion claimed to be sinless. He needs to be reminded that he is not, and that he does sin.
Secondly, it is a lie to assert that you have done so, (and repeatedly so), when you haven't. That indeed is a lie.
Third, if you have evidence of your theological position then it should be easy enough to provide it instead of just saying over and over again a simple statement of belief.

I have not ever claimed to be sinless. DHK keeps saying untruths about me.

 

[DHK]

I have not ever claimed to be sinless. DHK keeps saying untruths about me.

Your position contradicts itself. Your emphasis on obedience is so strong that the logical conclusion of it ends up in the position of sinlessness.

Look at the logic.
What happens if you were to sin (such as being angry on the board, posting a lie, slandering someone's position, etc.), then suddenly have a heart attack without having the chance to repent of the sin you just committed. If that happened would you go to heaven?

 

[Moriah]

Your position contradicts itself. Your emphasis on obedience is so strong that the logical conclusion of it ends up in the position of sinlessness.

Look at the logic.
What happens if you were to sin (such as being angry on the board, posting a lie, slandering someone's position, etc.), then suddenly have a heart attack without having the chance to repent of the sin you just committed. If that happened would you go to heaven?

I will not answer a question based on folly. You are trying to be a smart aleck.

 

[DHK]

I will not answer a question based on folly. You are trying to be a smart aleck.

It is a serious question. Your refusal to take it seriously only tells me that you have no assurance of salvation.

 

[Moriah]

It is a serious question. Your refusal to take it seriously only tells me that you have no assurance of salvation.

DHK,
Stop accusing me of things I do not do, when I defend myself you call me liar. I am not the topic. Let us debate doctrines.

 

[DHK]

DHK,
Stop accusing me of things I do not do, when I defend myself you call me liar. I am not the topic. Let us debate doctrines.

Debate doctrine? You won't debate doctrine. I bring up doctrine and you complain, tell me I am attacking you, and all kind of nonsense. Look at the doctrines just within the last ten posts or so that you have avoided.

1. The doctrine of angels. (fallen angels)

I gave you the scriptures already.

No you haven't. In fact no one has. I have never seen any Scripture that says Jesus went and preached the gospel to any spirits in prison.
Show me that in Scripture. Don't say you already have; you haven't. So don't lie.

2. This post covers two doctrines: one is entire sanctification, and the second is eternal security.

Your position contradicts itself. Your emphasis on obedience is so strong that the logical conclusion of it ends up in the position of sinlessness.

Look at the logic.
What happens if you were to sin (such as being angry on the board, posting a lie, slandering someone's position, etc.), then suddenly have a heart attack without having the chance to repent of the sin you just committed. If that happened would you go to heaven?

You answered scornfully and ridiculed the question. You should be ashamed.

And in your last post you say:

DHK,
Stop accusing me of things I do not do, when I defend myself you call me liar. I am not the topic. Let us debate doctrines.

You have quite the nerve!
You have only demonstrated to me that you just want to complain. You have no interest in discussing any doctrines at all.

 

[Moriah]

Debate doctrine? You won't debate doctrine. I bring up doctrine and you complain, tell me I am attacking you, and all kind of nonsense. Look at the doctrines just within the last ten posts or so that you have avoided.

1. The doctrine of angels. (fallen angels)

2. This post covers two doctrines: one is entire sanctification, and the second is eternal security.

You answered scornfully and ridiculed the question. You should be ashamed.

And in your last post you say:

You have quite the nerve!
You have only demonstrated to me that you just want to complain. You have no interest in discussing any doctrines at all.

You repeatedly make these posts with personal attacks, and it is as if you really cannot see that you are doing it.

If you are serious about speaking of doctrines, do not just put a few titles down---post the scriptures and your explanations!

 

[DHK]

You repeatedly make these posts with personal attacks, and it is as if you really cannot see that you are doing it.

If you are serious about speaking of doctrines, do not just put a few titles down---post the scriptures and your explanations!

Go back and read the posts, the Scriptures were already posted, the questions that were asked, but NOT answered. I am sure you can figure it out.

 

[Moriah]

Go back and read the posts, the Scriptures were already posted, the questions that were asked, but NOT answered. I am sure you can figure it out.

No, I am not going to go look for your imaginary topics you imagined I have not discussed. You go and find what you want to talk about and post it. You keep making new post after new post with personal attacks, and then you say I will not talk about such and such. Well, now you put down what you want to talk about and we will talk.

 

[DHK]

No, I am not going to go look for your imaginary topics you imagined I have not discussed. You go and find what you want to talk about and post it. You keep making new post after new post with personal attacks, and then you say I will not talk about such and such. Well, now you put down what you want to talk about and we will talk.

You don't have to.
They are all summarized here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1883881&postcount=146

Just remember the context of the conversation, and answer the questions asked.

 

[Moriah]

You don't have to.
They are all summarized here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1883881&postcount=146

Just remember the context of the conversation, and answer the questions asked.

No, I am not going to check out that link. If you really want to talk about something, post it out one thing at time.

 

[DHK]

No, I am not going to check out that link. If you really want to talk about something, post it out one thing at time.

Alright. That post is only about six posts up. Here is the first part of it.

I have never seen any Scripture that says Jesus went and preached the gospel to any spirits in prison.
Show me that in Scripture. Don't say you already have; you haven't.

Jesus never went to any prison to preach the gospel. The Bible teaches no such thing. Why do you claim it does?

 

[Moriah]

Jesus never went to any prison to preach the gospel. The Bible teaches no such thing. Why do you claim it does?

I have given you scriptures and explanations already. Here they are again.

1 Peter 3:18-19 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—

1 Peter 4:5-6 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Faith in Jesus Christ makes those belonging to God perfect, even those who died before Jesus’ ministry on earth.* The Old Testament righteous people who

died before Jesus came to earth, they did not in their time get to see the promised salvation through Jesus Christ, the grace that was to come (1 Peter

1:10-12; 2 Peter 1:19; Romans 16:25-26; 1 Corinthians 4:1).* Paul says about the faithful in the Old Testament times, "These were all commended for their

faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.* God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made

perfect."* God's grace through faith in Jesus made the spirits of the righteous, those who had died before Jesus, they in the spirit were made perfect together

with Paul and the other first Christians (Hebrews 12:23; 11:39-40).* The Old Testament faithful were alive in the spirit watching from heaven.* Paul says,

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses..."* Jesus also tells us Abraham waited to see his day, Abraham saw it and was glad

(John 8:56).* Abraham died, yet was alive in the spirit.

There were those who disobeyed and died before Jesus came to earth, though they were dead their spirits went to a prison, unlike the spirits of the

righteous. After Jesus was crucified, he preached to those who were dead, he preached to the spirits in prison, the spirits of those who had died and

disobeyed long ago (see 1 Peter 3:18-19).* Those people who disobeyed and died before learning of Jesus...Jesus preached the gospel to them, so that they

might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit (1 Peter 4:5-6).* For Christ died for sins once for all,

the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to God, even those who lived and died before Jesus.

You see, Jesus came to earth and taught those on earth.* Then Jesus descended to the spirits in prison to preach to them, to those who disobeyed long

ago.* Jesus then ascended higher than all the heavens.* Jesus filled the whole universe (see Ephesians 4:10).

These scriptures show we have living, thinking spirits that live on after the death of the body.* Some spirits go with those who disobey, and spirits of the

righteous live in heaven.* These scriptures show that our spirits live on, and how Jesus filled the whole universe.

Rejoice at Jesus saving us, and rejoice at knowing without a doubt that the Word of God tells us we have spirits that live on.

Thank You, Father God in heaven, through Jesus Christ. Amen.

 

[DHK]

I have given you scriptures and explanations already. Here they are again.

1 Peter 3:18-19 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—

It is heresy to say that Christ preached the gospel here. He didn't. No one in Hell will ever hear the gospel or ever get any other chance to be saved again.
Look again:
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
He preached. Period. He did not preach the gospel. The word "preach" as in the translation you quoted, simply means "proclaim." The natural and best interpretation here is that he went and proclaimed his victory over Satan, the very ones that the fallen spirits had followed. They had their chance in heaven. The Son of God was there already. There is no time in heaven. Those angels knew the gospel. Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. They didn't need the gospel preached to them. They were and are eternally doomed.

1 Peter 4:5-6 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.[/quote]
What is so difficult about these verses. Peter was writing to Christians who under intense persecution and undergoing great suffering by the Roman government. Look at verse 3:
1 Peter 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
--He reminds them what their lives used to be like.
But we also will give account to God. God is our judge.
The gospel has been preached even to them that have now passed away, whether or not they have accepted it. It is to their generation that he is speaking. Most of those Roman soldiers and those who were persecuting them had also heard the gospel and they will face judgment from God. Therefore, you, as believers, live according to the Spirit. (It would be easy to live carnally, wanting to take vengeance on those causing suffering).

Faith in Jesus Christ makes those belonging to God perfect, even those who died before Jesus’ ministry on earth.* The Old Testament righteous people who died before Jesus came to earth, they did not in their time get to see the promised salvation through Jesus Christ, the grace that was to come (1 Peter 1:10-12; 2 Peter 1:19; Romans 16:25-26; 1 Corinthians 4:1).* Paul says about the faithful in the Old Testament times, "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.* God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."* God's grace through faith in Jesus made the spirits of the righteous, those who had died before Jesus, they in the spirit were made perfect together with Paul and the other first Christians (Hebrews 12:23; 11:39-40).* The Old Testament faithful were alive in the spirit watching from heaven.* Paul says,
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses..."* Jesus also tells us Abraham waited to see his day, Abraham saw it and was glad (John 8:56).* Abraham died, yet was alive in the spirit.

This is a nice copy and paste. Where did you get it from. It does not say Jesus went and preached to spirits in prison does it?

There were those who disobeyed and died before Jesus came to earth, though they were dead their spirits went to a prison, unlike the spirits of the righteous. After Jesus was crucified, he preached to those who were dead, he preached to the spirits in prison, the spirits of those who had died and disobeyed long ago (see 1 Peter 3:18-19).* Those people who disobeyed and died before learning of Jesus...Jesus preached the gospel to them, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit (1 Peter 4:5-6).* For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to God, even those who lived and died before Jesus.

This is nonsense. Fallen angels were in glory with Jesus before they came to earth. They rebelled against a holy and Mighty God, following the mightiest of all angels, Lucifer himself, who managed to get one third of all angels to follow him. They will never regain their status as either angels or as redeemed. Never!!!!

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
--No chance for salvation. They are cast into hell only to await the Great White Throne Judgment.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
--No chance for salvation. No chance at all.

You see, Jesus came to earth and taught those on earth.* Then Jesus descended to the spirits in prison to preach to them, to those who disobeyed long ago.* Jesus then ascended higher than all the heavens.* Jesus filled the whole universe (see Ephesians 4:10).

He may have proclaimed victory, but never preached the gospel to any disobedient spirits. They are forever condemned.

These scriptures show we have living, thinking spirits that live on after the death of the body.* Some spirits go with those who disobey, and spirits of the righteous live in heaven.* These scriptures show that our spirits live on, and how Jesus filled the whole universe.

Rejoice at Jesus saving us, and rejoice at knowing without a doubt that the Word of God tells us we have spirits that live on.

Thank You, Father God in heaven, through Jesus Christ. Amen.

Nice copy and paste. Give your sources.
There are no second chances.

 

[Moriah]

It is heresy to say that Christ preached the gospel here.

I did not say it, I quoted scripture. LOL

He didn't. No one in Hell will ever hear the gospel or ever get any other chance to be saved again.

You deny the scriptures that plainly says, “ through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison”

He preached. Period. He did not preach the gospel. The word "preach" as in the translation you quoted, simply means "proclaim."

You cannot claim the gospel was not preached. Read 1 Peter 4:6, Peter says the gospel was preached to those who are now dead.


1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

The natural and best interpretation here is that he went and proclaimed his victory over Satan,

Show that anywhere in the Bible, or stop saying something that is not there.

the very ones that the fallen spirits had followed. They had their chance in heaven. The Son of God was there already. There is no time in heaven. Those angels knew the gospel. Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. They didn't need the gospel preached to them. They were and are eternally doomed.

The Bible says the gospel was preached to those who were dead. Satan and angels do not die. The Bible says the gospel was preached to those who were dead so they could live according to God in the spirit. Satan and his angels do not have a chance at salvation. Therefore, it is not about Satan and his angles as you have tried to say.

1 Peter 4:5-6 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

What is so difficult about these verses. Peter was writing to Christians who under intense persecution and undergoing great suffering by the Roman government. Look at verse 3:
1 Peter 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
--He reminds them what their lives used to be like.

And?

But we also will give account to God. God is our judge.

And?

The gospel has been preached even to them that have now passed away,

And?

whether or not they have accepted it. It is to their generation that he is speaking.

And?

Most of those Roman soldiers and those who were persecuting them had also heard the gospel and they will face judgment from God.

Why are you bringing in Roman soldiers in particularly?

Therefore, you, as believers, live according to the Spirit. (It would be easy to live carnally, wanting to take vengeance on those causing suffering).

Huh? What is this? I do not see that in the Bible in those scriptures.

This is a nice copy and paste. Where did you get it from. It does not say Jesus went and preached to spirits in prison does it?

It is one of my writings.
I give the scriptures about Jesus going to the spirits in prison. You even discussed it with me. Have you already forgotten?

Fallen angels were in glory with Jesus before they came to earth.

Where do the scriptures mention fallen angels?

They rebelled against a holy and Mighty God, following the mightiest of all angels, Lucifer himself, who managed to get one third of all angels to follow him. They will never regain their status as either angels or as redeemed. Never!!!!

So why are you bringing up the angels that had fallen? lol

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
--No chance for salvation. They are cast into hell only to await the Great White Throne Judgment.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
--No chance for salvation. No chance at all.

You are the one who argued that Jesus preached to Satan and the fallen angels...lol

 

[Yeshua1]

I did not say it, I quoted scripture. LOL



You deny the scriptures that plainly says, “ through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison”



You cannot claim the gospel was not preached. Read 1 Peter 4:6, Peter says the gospel was preached to those who are now dead.


1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.


Show that anywhere in the Bible, or stop saying something that is not there.



The Bible says the gospel was preached to those who were dead. Satan and angels do not die. The Bible says the gospel was preached to those who were dead so they could live according to God in the spirit. Satan and his angels do not have a chance at salvation. Therefore, it is not about Satan and his angles as you have tried to say.


And?



And?



And?



And?



Why are you bringing in Roman soldiers in particularly?



Huh? What is this? I do not see that in the Bible in those scriptures.


It is one of my writings.
I give the scriptures about Jesus going to the spirits in prison. You even discussed it with me. Have you already forgotten?


Where do the scriptures mention fallen angels?


So why are you bringing up the angels that had fallen? lol



You are the one who argued that Jesus preached to Satan and the fallen angels...lol

Do you hold that a sinner is justified and saved By God by failth ONLY placed ONLY in the person and work at the Cross for their behalf?

MUST they be water baptized and obey also in order to get saved?

 

[DHK]

You have totally ignored my entire post. Your most common answer is: And? And? And? etc., which means you don't know how to respond, or don't understand what is being said. Look carefully at these three passages. They all go together, are all talking about the same event, the same thing. They cannot be separated from each other.

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

These are the spirits in prison that Jesus went and "preached" to. Nowhere does it say he preached the gospel. That is your interpretation. The word "preached" means "proclaim", even as in the translation that you quoted from. He proclaimed his victory over satan. These were all fallen angels that had followed Satan in his rebellion against God. That is why they are in prison, reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

One must compare Scripture with Scripture if he is going to ascertain the truth of Scripture. The other scriptures I have explained for you but you don't take time to think about them and therefore reject them. These are the three most important. Fallen angels do not get a second chance. These are what those spirits in prison are--fallen angels. They will never get a chance to repent.

 

[Wittenberger]

You have totally ignored my entire post. Your most common answer is: And? And? And? etc., which means you don't know how to respond, or don't understand what is being said. Look carefully at these three passages. They all go together, are all talking about the same event, the same thing. They cannot be separated from each other.

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

These are the spirits in prison that Jesus went and "preached" to. Nowhere does it say he preached the gospel. That is your interpretation. The word "preached" means "proclaim", even as in the translation that you quoted from. He proclaimed his victory over satan. These were all fallen angels that had followed Satan in his rebellion against God. That is why they are in prison, reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

One must compare Scripture with Scripture if he is going to ascertain the truth of Scripture. The other scriptures I have explained for you but you don't take time to think about them and therefore reject them. These are the three most important. Fallen angels do not get a second chance. These are what those spirits in prison are--fallen angels. They will never get a chance to repent.

A Christian should compare scripture to scripture AND read how the Church Fathers understood what the verses in question mean. They were told the real meaning by the Apostles themselves or by disciples of the Apostles.

Your personal interpretation just that...yours! There is no way to know if it is the truth by just believing that God has revealed to you that you are right. God does not give personal revelations anymore.

 

[DHK]

A Christian should compare scripture to scripture AND read how the Church Fathers understood what the verses in question mean. They were told the real meaning by the Apostles themselves or by disciples of the Apostles.

Your personal interpretation just that...yours! There is no way to know if it is the truth by just believing that God has revealed to you that you are right. God does not give personal revelations anymore.

We know the truth by comparing Scripture to Scripture. If you don't like what I have posted then refute it. This is a debate forum not a complaint forum.

 

[Yeshua1]

A Christian should compare scripture to scripture AND read how the Church Fathers understood what the verses in question mean. They were told the real meaning by the Apostles themselves or by disciples of the Apostles.

Your personal interpretation just that...yours! There is no way to know if it is the truth by just believing that God has revealed to you that you are right. God does not give personal revelations anymore.

neither does the bible contridict itself!

There are NO second chances!