Why don't Baptists believe Acts 2:38 literally?

[Wittenberger]

We know the truth by comparing Scripture to Scripture. If you don't like what I have posted then refute it. This is a debate forum not a complaint forum.

Once again, my fundamentalist brother, you have a very short fuse. You are so easily angered!

I just clarified your statement: Scripture interprets Scripture WITH the help of those who actually knew the writers of the New Testament--the Church Fathers.

Avoid all new doctrines: symbolic baptism, symbolic Lord's Supper, a secret Rapture, that have no support in the testimonies of early Christians or in historical evidence.

 

[DHK]

Once again, my fundamentalist brother, you have a very short fuse. You are so easily angered!

I just clarified your statement: Scripture interprets Scripture WITH the help of those who actually knew the writers of the New Testament--the Church Fathers.

Avoid all new doctrines: symbolic baptism, symbolic Lord's Supper, a secret Rapture, that have no support in the testimonies of early Christians or in historical evidence.

I stated my position. I asked you to refute it if you can. Where is the anger. It seems to me that you are the one that is frustrated. Perhaps you don't know the Bible well enough to come back with an intelligent answer that you have to resort to personal attacks.

 

[Moriah]

I stated my position. I asked you to refute it if you can. Where is the anger. It seems to me that you are the one that is frustrated. Perhaps you don't know the Bible well enough to come back with an intelligent answer that you have to resort to personal attacks.

No, DHK it is not Wittenberg, it is you.

 

[Moriah]

Do you hold that a sinner is justified and saved By God by failth ONLY placed ONLY in the person and work at the Cross for their behalf?

Jesus’ blood saves us by faith alone. However, Jesus chooses whom he lives with, and it is the one who is sorry for their sins.

MUST they be water baptized and obey also in order to get saved?

It is obeying when we repent and believe. As for water baptism, a person can be saved before water baptism, during water baptism, or after water baptism.

 

[Moriah]

You have totally ignored my entire post. Your most common answer is: And? And? And? etc., which means you don't know how to respond, or don't understand what is being said. Look carefully at these three passages. They all go together, are all talking about the same event, the same thing. They cannot be separated from each other.

When I say, “And?” that is because you only quoted the scripture which I believe.

These are the spirits in prison that Jesus went and "preached" to. Nowhere does it say he preached the gospel. That is your interpretation. The word "preached" means "proclaim", even as in the translation that you quoted from. He proclaimed his victory over satan. These were all fallen angels that had followed Satan in his rebellion against God. That is why they are in prison, reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

No. The spirits in prison that Jesus preached to were of those who had died. Angels do not die.
You are the one adding that Jesus preached to Satan and the angels who had fallen. Is that not what Kenneth Copeland and the like preach?

 

[DHK]

When I say, “And?” that is because you only quoted the scripture which I believe.

No. The spirits in prison that Jesus preached to were of those who had died. Angels do not die.
You are the one adding that Jesus preached to Satan and the angels who had fallen. Is that not what Kenneth Copeland and the like preach?

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Please look at the context of each of these verses. I am not saying that Satan is there. These were followers of Satan, as all fallen angels or disobedient spirits are. He took one third of the angels with him. These ones were disobedient in that they took flesh upon themselves and committed gross immorality with the "daughters of men" in Genesis 6, thus bringing the Flood upon the world. Read the context.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

"and spared not the old world but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness..."
--These fallen angels who committed such immoral acts were thrown into a prison and will wait the Great White Throne Judgment. Remember that we are all spirit beings. We are clothed temporarily with a body of flesh. When we die our spirits also will go either to heaven or hell. Some of the language in that sense may be a bit figurative, God writing it that way to give us some sense of their judgement.

If you believe these Scriptures you will believe they are fallen angels which will never have a chance of entering heaven, that the only reason that Christ could have possibly preached to them is to proclaim his victory over Satan, the one that they previously followed. He defeated him on the cross.

 

[Moriah]

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Please look at the context of each of these verses. I am not saying that Satan is there. These were followers of Satan, as all fallen angels or disobedient spirits are. He took one third of the angels with him. These ones were disobedient in that they took flesh upon themselves and committed gross immorality with the "daughters of men" in Genesis 6, thus bringing the Flood upon the world. Read the context.

Spirits of people who disobeyed God went to a place too, a place where the righteous did not go. The righteous went to where Abraham was. You are completely neglecting the place the unrighteous go.

If you believe these Scriptures you will believe they are fallen angels which will never have a chance of entering heaven, that the only reason that Christ could have possibly preached to them is to proclaim his victory over Satan, the one that they previously followed. He defeated him on the cross.

You are discounting the fact that the gospel was preached to those who disobeyed and died, angels do not die, so it was not about preaching to fallen angels.

 

[DHK]

Spirits of people who disobeyed God went to a place too, a place where the righteous did not go. The righteous went to where Abraham was. You are completely neglecting the place the unrighteous go.

Yes that is true. Those are the spirits of people. It is called the "compartmental theory" and is described in Luke 16 where the story of the rich man and Lazarus is given. In the OT the word is known as SHEOL, to the place of the departed dead. One part was paradise and the part was "hell."
That has to do only with the spirits of people, like Lazarus, the rich man, Abraham. It has nothing to do with fallen angels.

You are discounting the fact that the gospel was preached to those who disobeyed and died, angels do not die, so it was not about preaching to fallen angels.

I explained that passage already. Quote it again. It does not refer to fallen angels. Quote it again and we will discuss it.

 

[Moriah]

Yes that is true. Those are the spirits of people. It is called the "compartmental theory" and is described in Luke 16 where the story of the rich man and Lazarus is given. In the OT the word is known as SHEOL, to the place of the departed dead. One part was paradise and the part was "hell."
That has to do only with the spirits of people, like Lazarus, the rich man, Abraham. It has nothing to do with fallen angels.

I explained that passage already. Quote it again. It does not refer to fallen angels. Quote it again and we will discuss it.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins,the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Here we learn that the imprisoned spirits are people, not angels as you have said. The scriptures are clearly about disobeying people.

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

We learn that the gospel was preached to those who are now “dead.’ We know this is about people because angels do not die. You have said these scriptures are about Satan and his fallen angels.

 

[DHK]

Here we learn that the imprisoned spirits are people, not angels as you have said. The scriptures are clearly about disobeying people.

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

We learn that the gospel was preached to those who are now “dead.’ We know this is about people because angels do not die. You have said these scriptures are about Satan and his fallen angels.

1Peter 3:19 has nothing to do with 1 Peter 4:6. These are two completely different subjects in two different chapters of the book.

Remember that Peter was writing to suffering Christian being persecuted by Roman soldiers. Many Christians had already died and had gone to be with the Lord.
Paul was assuring them that the gospel had been preached to them that had already died, and gone to be with the Lord--their fathers and grandfathers, their aunts and uncles. They had all heard the gospel. These were suffering Christians undergoing an intense persecution by Nero. Those who had died had already heard the gospel.

Whether they had received the Lord or not they would be judge according to the same standard as you or I. It is that simple. He is talking about people not spirits.

 

[Moriah]

1Peter 3:19 has nothing to do with 1 Peter 4:6. These are two completely different subjects in two different chapters of the book.

Remember that Peter was writing to suffering Christian being persecuted by Roman soldiers. Many Christians had already died and had gone to be with the Lord.
Paul was assuring them that the gospel had been preached to them that had already died, and gone to be with the Lord--their fathers and grandfathers, their aunts and uncles. They had all heard the gospel. These were suffering Christians undergoing an intense persecution by Nero. Those who had died had already heard the gospel.

Whether they had received the Lord or not they would be judge according to the same standard as you or I. It is that simple. He is talking about people not spirits.

You are adding your own story of who and what the topic was about.

You also have said it was about Jesus proclaiming to Satan and his angels.

You are wrong on all accounts.

 

[DHK]

You are adding your own story of who and what the topic was about.

You also have said it was about Jesus proclaiming to Satan and his angels.

You are wrong on all accounts.

Don't just accuse me of being wrong, when you can't show me why I am wrong. 1Pet.4 has nothing to do with spirits in prison. Demonstrate that it does. Show context.

I said about Satan, that Satan wasn't there, but it was his followers, fallen angels, the ones that had committed immorality in Genesis 6 that were there. Satan still roams this world freely. He also has many other followers that we call demons. One third of the angels followed him in his rebellion. Those are only some of them that are held in that prison--the ones that committed those lewd acts of immorality that brought God's judgement of the Flood upon the earth.

I gave you scripture to back up my view. I have explained other Scripture to you. You can't just say I am wrong without giving any scriptural reason.

 

[Moriah]

Don't just accuse me of being wrong, when you can't show me why I am wrong. 1Pet.4 has nothing to do with spirits in prison. Demonstrate that it does. Show context.

I said about Satan, that Satan wasn't there, but it was his followers, fallen angels, the ones that had committed immorality in Genesis 6 that were there. Satan still roams this world freely. He also has many other followers that we call demons. One third of the angels followed him in his rebellion. Those are only some of them that are held in that prison--the ones that committed those lewd acts of immorality that brought God's judgement of the Flood upon the earth.

I gave you scripture to back up my view. I have explained other Scripture to you. You can't just say I am wrong without giving any scriptural reason.

You have not proven me wrong. I have proven you wrong about the scriptures being about angels. You have added to the scriptures by saying it was about Roman soldiers.

 

[DHK]

You have not proven me wrong. I have proven you wrong about the scriptures being about angels. You have added to the scriptures by saying it was about Roman soldiers.

There is nothing about 1Peter 4 that speaks about angels. It speaks about "dead". Dead people, not dead spirits. There is nothing there about fallen angels, demonic spirits, or anything similar. They are those people that have died. Show me anything other than dead people in that chapter. The subject does not refer to spirits of any kind. Prove me wrong. Demonstrate with Scripture, with the context of that chapter.

 

[Moriah]

There is nothing about 1Peter 4 that speaks about angels. It speaks about "dead". Dead people, not dead spirits. There is nothing there about fallen angels, demonic spirits, or anything similar. They are those people that have died. Show me anything other than dead people in that chapter. The subject does not refer to spirits of any kind. Prove me wrong. Demonstrate with Scripture, with the context of that chapter.

You said one part was about fallen angels, I proved it was about people. You have also given a story about Roman soldiers…there is no mention of it being about Roman soldiers.
You gave your explanation, and I have given mine. Let us move on now.

 

[DHK]

You said one part was about fallen angels, I proved it was about people. You have also given a story about Roman soldiers…there is no mention of it being about Roman soldiers.
You gave your explanation, and I have given mine. Let us move on now.

Let's not move on.
1Pet.3:19 speaks about spirits in prison. What spirits?
The same spirits that Jude speaks of in Jude 1:6

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

They are the same spirits that Peter speaks of in 2Peter 2:4

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

But know and understand that there are no spirits spoken of in 1Peter 4:6:
1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

This verse refers to people who have died, not to fallen angels or spirits.
How these people got dead is irrelevant then. I suggested that they may have died by the hands of Roman soldiers. That is not factual. It is irrelevant. They may have died by natural causes. They may have died by their families' own hand, for the Jews who had converted to Christianity persecuted their own, such as Saul did. It could be by any number of reasons. They died. That is what happened.

The gospel was preached to those who are NOW dead. They are NOW buried in the cemetery, and the gospel WAS preached to them. Later they WILL stand before God and give account of themselves. That is all the verse is saying.

Do you understand now?

 

[Moriah]

Let's not move on.
1Pet.3:19 speaks about spirits in prison. What spirits?
The same spirits that Jude speaks of in Jude 1:6

Move on DHK. I have told you many times that 1 Peter 3:19 is not about angels, it is about people. I have also explained why. Go back and read why.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

They are the same spirits that Peter speaks of in 2Peter 2:4

Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 is about angels. It is not about angels in 3:19, you are adding that to the scripture. The scripture speaks about people who disobeyed.

But know and understand that there are no spirits spoken of in 1Peter 4:6:
1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

They are now dead, and are judged in regards to the body, but live according to God in the spirit, that shows they are now spirits hearing the message for the first time, for if they had heard the message while alive, then they would also be living according to God in the body too.

 

[DHK]

Move on DHK. I have told you many times that 1 Peter 3:19 is not about angels, it is about people. I have also explained why. Go back and read why.

Not about angels??

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The spirits in prison, disobedient in the days of Noah. That can only refer to one thing. Those are the disobedient spirits who were the agents that caused the Flood, the destruction of the world, when the longsuffering of God ran out. As God said: "God's Spirit shall not always strive with man."

 

[Moriah]

Not about angels??

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The spirits in prison, disobedient in the days of Noah. That can only refer to one thing. Those are the disobedient spirits who were the agents that caused the Flood, the destruction of the world, when the longsuffering of God ran out. As God said: "God's Spirit shall not always strive with man."

That scripture is about people, the scripture does not mention the angels.

 

[DHK]

That scripture is about people, the scripture does not mention the angels.

Spirits are not people, especially when no such context is given. The spirits of man either go to heaven or hell.