37818
Well-Known Member
Where is a direct Anabaptist to Primitive Baptist connection?
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Why Don't Modern Denominations Understand The Rapture
- Thread starter JD731
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JD, there is no biblical source for a pre-trib rapture. The only way you can make an argument is to take verses out of their context and then force them together to create a theory. Nowhere do we ever find a pre-trib rapture of the entire church in the Bible. Revelation never takes the church out of the trials. Instead, the church is marked by God.
(Revelation 7:3)
“Wait! Don’t harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have placed the seal of God on the foreheads of his servants.”
Unfortunately, you interpret Revelation like a schizophrenic person, choosing symbolism when you can't fit things into your system and demanding literalism out of obvious gematria. You torture Revelation to make it fit your presuppositions.
Yet, here you are, telling us all that we have no biblical support. Sir, you lose all credibility when you cannot even articulate the biblical reasons that others provide for their position.
Here's an interview with Kim Riddelbarger regarding the Amillennial view and its biblical position. You may not agree, but you will be utterly wrong if you claim it doesn't have biblical support.
He has no idea of the lineage and he thinks PB's started from scratch?... Oh ye of little faith!... PB's were not always called PB's... Waldenses, Lollards, Anabaptist are a few and the list goes on and on and on... Brother Glen
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Bologna
Mr. Charles Hodge (in his Systematic Theology), however, makes the wise remark: “Experience teaches that the interpretation of unfulfilled prophesy is exceedingly precarious. There is every reason to believe that the predictions concerning the second advent of Christ, and the events which are to attend and follow it, will disappoint the expectations of commentators, as the expectations of the Jews were disappointed in the manner in which the prophesies concerning the first advent were accomplished... AMEN!... Brother Glen
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Mr. Charles Hodge (in his Systematic Theology), however, makes the wise remark: “Experience teaches that the interpretation of unfulfilled prophesy is exceedingly precarious. There is every reason to believe that the predictions concerning the second advent of Christ, and the events which are to attend and follow it, will disappoint the expectations of commentators, as the expectations of the Jews were disappointed in the manner in which the prophesies concerning the first advent were accomplished... Brother Glen
If what you say were true, which it is not, Jesus would have been in error to have chastised the two disciples on the road to Emmaus.
The lazy don't really try to understand the prophecies of God nor look for their fulfillment. Even though there is blessings in Revelation to do so. And the scriptures say: "see the day approaching".
The scriptures only say that no man knoweth the day nor the hour. Very short periods of time only.
You internet tough guys can have your coming Antichrist Kingdom. I'm not going to be here. I'm not appointed to wrath. Enjoy.
An interesting form of processed meat. Really just a flattened hotdog.
However, this thread has nothing to do with bologna.
Bologna = a widely accepted worthy dispelling response to idiocy. Like yours.
They thought he was a King that was going to free them from Roman oppression... They had no idea he was the suffering servant, sent to die for their sins... They had no idea of prophecy, even though they read it... It didn't turn out like they thought in their mind it should... There is no difference here there is resurrection to take us home to glory, what happens before or what happens after we don't know... All I know is when Lord comes, he's taking me home where he lives... Brother Glen
Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Explain how this passage proves the pre-trib rapture? Or are you still dispensing processed meat?
(Luke 24:13-34)
That same day two of Jesus’ followers were walking to the village of Emmaus, seven miles from Jerusalem. As they walked along they were talking about everything that had happened. As they talked and discussed these things, Jesus himself suddenly came and began walking with them. But God kept them from recognizing him. He asked them, “What are you discussing so intently as you walk along?” They stopped short, sadness written across their faces. Then one of them, Cleopas, replied, “You must be the only person in Jerusalem who hasn’t heard about all the things that have happened there the last few days.” “What things?” Jesus asked. “The things that happened to Jesus, the man from Nazareth,” they said. “He was a prophet who did powerful miracles, and he was a mighty teacher in the eyes of God and all the people. But our leading priests and other religious leaders handed him over to be condemned to death, and they crucified him. We had hoped he was the Messiah who had come to rescue Israel. This all happened three days ago. “Then some women from our group of his followers were at his tomb early this morning, and they came back with an amazing report. They said his body was missing, and they had seen angels who told them Jesus is alive! Some of our men ran out to see, and sure enough, his body was gone, just as the women had said.” Then Jesus said to them, “You foolish people! You find it so hard to believe all that the prophets wrote in the Scriptures. Wasn’t it clearly predicted that the Messiah would have to suffer all these things before entering his glory?” Then Jesus took them through the writings of Moses and all the prophets, explaining from all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. By this time they were nearing Emmaus and the end of their journey. Jesus acted as if he were going on, but they begged him, “Stay the night with us, since it is getting late.” So he went home with them. As they sat down to eat, he took the bread and blessed it. Then he broke it and gave it to them. Suddenly, their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. And at that moment he disappeared! They said to each other, “Didn’t our hearts burn within us as he talked with us on the road and explained the Scriptures to us?” And within the hour they were on their way back to Jerusalem. There they found the eleven disciples and the others who had gathered with them, who said, “The Lord has really risen! He appeared to Peter.”
What does that even mean? You don't know what it means. It is not something the scriptures teach. If it appeared in any setting besides a religious setting it would be assumed it came from the mental ward.
It is God the Father who saves us. It is he who sent his Son into the world and who judged him righteous and justified sinners on his account when they come to him in the name of the Lord Jesus. He is judge of all the earth. And it is not by grace alone and faith alone! It by grace through faith. But you, as a Calvinist do not even believe that. You teach that it is by faith through grace by teaching faith is a grace and must be given by God.
Here is what the scriptures says and it is something you reverse to fit your man made doctrines that can't help nobody.
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it (the "it" is righteousness that God requires) is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
If righteousness is not by faith it cannot be by grace. When you say faith is given by God then you make faith the grace of God and turn the scriptures and the explanation of salvation into a senseless proposition.
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Who quickens the dead? God the Father.
Faith is not a work and it is not the gift of God like is taught by your religion.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he (God) had promised, he (God) was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it (his believing, his faith) was imputed to him (Abraham) for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it (righteousness because of his believing God the Father) )was imputed to him;
24 But for us (us after the cross of Christ) also, to whom it (righteousness) shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Now watch this amazing statement;
and was raised again for our justification.
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom (by Jesus Christ) also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
We have access by faith into this grace of God wherein he reckons us guiltless on the merits of Christ sinless life and his sacrifice for us. Calvinists and Reformed teaches a perverted view of of faith and grace, among many other things.
Here is my conclusion; if denominational religion cannot get the simple truth of salvation right, which is not a mystery, how can they get the mysteries of God right and understand them. The answer is, they can't. But there is good news. It is not too late to get it right, but you must believe the words of God. The rapture of the church is a mystery and if everyone regardless of their spiritual condition could understand it, it would prove the scriptures unreliable and untrue.Thank God that his word is proven true even through this avenue.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree, and I see it literally everywhere in these last of the last days.
Again I agree. I've noticed it as well, on many boards and websites...
Not just this one.
Everything from "the Rapture", to how salvation is accomplished by God and many other doctrines are not only misunderstood, but mis-taught as well.
At the end of it all, God's secret is with the righteous, and no one else.
"salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone"
You don't understand that unless God extends grace to you, you won't be saved? You don't understand that unless God graciously gifts you faith, you won't be saved? You don't understand that unless God makes you alive with Christ, you won't be saved?
Are you ignorant of Ephesians 2:1-10?
Do you think Paul came from a mental ward when he shows you this truth in Ephesians 2:1-10?
Indeed, this is true.
Sir, without grace you have no faith. Dead in sins people have no faith, until God saves them by grace and makes them alive with Christ, then gives the gift of faith so that no one can boast.
Faith is a grace of God and Paul tells us this in Ephesians 2:1-10.
Romans 4:13-17 tells you faith is a gift of grace.
Ephesians 2:1-10 tells us God saves by grace and makes alive with Christ.
So you reject Ephesians 2?
Was Abraham chosen by God or not before he received the promise or did he have to work for it first?
God's grace surrounds us. It is never ending. If our High Priest did not intercede for us we would be doomed. (Hebrews 7)
I am sorry you don't understand what scripture teaches you.
Do you see the irony of your comment. You claim salvation is a mystery,yet you tell us only you get it right and all others get it wrong.
I believe the words of God. I disagree with your synergist interpretation of God's word.
I don't deny the rapture of the church. It takes place when the last person comes to saving faith and Jesus returns to utterly destroy his enemies who have been persecuting His servants.
What I tell you is that the pre-trib rapture is never, ever, taught in the Bible. It is a fabrication of futurist imagination.
I am going to evaluate your entire post in a few words. You, like other commentators who venture here with systematic theologies that have been created by men, usually bearing their own names, cannot defend the doctrines of those systems from the scriptures, on you own and with reason and knowledge and intelligence. The reason you can't is because the scriptures do not teach those things you have adopted and you are left making silly statements as your lone defense for you errors, as you have done above when you are presented with irrevocable truth. This forces you to ignore and abandon any cogent argument from the text and go about to defend them from what you are told from your systems one liners, talking points, or denial of those doctrines that conflict with theirs. The proof that my evaluation is correct is that you did not offer a rebuttal of the clear meaning of the text and doctrine that I presented that exposes your theology to be errant.
Salvation from the penalty of sin, as it is defined in the scriptures, does not include faith as the gift of God in order for sinners to be saved. He willingly gives his truth, his words, to sinners so they may believe and be saved. I will give you as long as you want to find any statement in the scriptures that says the gift of God is faith. Take two weeks if you want, but your search will be in vain.
There is a gift of faith given to certain Christians, but not all, who have been baptized in the body of Christ by the Spirit. These spiritual gifts are enablement's of certain ones in the body as ministry gifts for functioning in the collective body. These gifts are given to those saved people who the Spirit of God has placed in the body at his own discretion. Not all believers have the same spiritual gifts.
I am being tough on you here because you are not using logic, reason, and knowledge in your opposition to the subject. Neither are you using scripture rightly divided.
You can only say your view on the rapture is based on your understanding of the subject in your theological system. Your views are based on that system and you do not understand the meaning of several great Bible doctrines because the system has them wrong.
I encourage you to forsake Calvinism as a corrupt system and begin to study on you own with a heart for truth, asking God to show you what to believe. He will do it but you will need to learn to believe his words.
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Believing God glorifies him! The words in the scriptures are the source of the knowledge of God for us and are the words of God the Father that he has chosen as the authority for faith and works.
Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
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Sir, I defended my position with scripture and you have completely ignored the scripture provided. My reasons for believing that God saves by grace alone are shown to you specifically in Ephesians 2. You turn your back on this passage.
We are saved by grace (Ephesians 2).
We are justified by faith (Romans 1 through Romans 11).
What I find with you is that you cannot support your view with scripture so you attack those who provide scripture to you that entirely dismantles your philosophy.
Your spewing of antichristian hate speech toward anyone who stands against you does not make your statement correct. It seems the moderators could talk with you about your hate speech.
The epistle to the Ephesians, written from Rome in 60 AD addresses two different segments of the Christian church. The very first verse in the epistle will give that breakdown. It says this.
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
Segment #1 - to the saints which are at Ephesus,
Segment #2 - and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Segment #1 is a reference to the Jewish believers who are in that church and segment #2 are those who are called gentiles. One must understand and accept this truth if he will understand the "mystery of Christ," which is the theme of the epistle. These things have been hidden "in God," Paul says, until God chose him to make these things known in this age that he names "the dispensation of the grace of God." The mystery, for those who desire a nutshell verse to state this mystery, I direct you to chapter 3, verse 6.
It was not a mystery that God had promised his people, the Jews, that he would save them and give them his Holy Spirit to indwell them and give them life. What he had not mentioned until the door of faith was opened to the gentiles by Peter in Acts 10, is that he was forming a new thing in the earth, called the church, with both Jews and gentiles with equal status as "children of God though the new birth." This would also be his body and his bride and the pattern for this new relationship was prefigured in the creation of Eve, from the sleeping body of Adam and then presented to him as his bride and his wife. So, by the time this letter was written, there had been 20 years of church experience for Jews and gentiles and because of former relationships and covenants with the Jewish nation an explanation from God himself would be necessary for an understanding of what he was doing in this age. His integrity is also on the line if he does not fulfill all his covenant promises concerning a kingdom, a nation, the land, and a King to his covenant people, the Jews. This he will do when the church of Jesus Christ is complete.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
The cross of Jesus Christ was a major change for both Jews and gentiles and his death and resurrection made the way for God to forgive sins and remain a just God in doing it. The apostle in this epistle declared that the church of Jesus Christ IS the wisdom of God on display.
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
One can see in the whole of Eph 2 that these two groups of believers are noted and are present and that the first group, the Jews, are being saved on the basis of OT promises to them while the gentile believers are being saved on the principlal of grace, simply because God had made no promises to them that he was obligated to keep.
Thank God for his grace and mercy.
The church of Jesus Christ is a new creation in Christ Jesus and is different from Israel with different history and destination and relationship with God. The church of Jesus Christ is formed by believers from both groupsuntil 70 AD when the Jewish national identity was suspended and the scattered Jews were incorporated into gentile cultures and under their authorities and was thus considered by God as gentiles. It was at this time that the church took on a gentile character. One must understand though, that the church possesses the trinitarian signature in it's creation, Jew, gentile, and the Spirit of Christ.
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
Segment #1 - to the saints which are at Ephesus,
Segment #2 - and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Segment #1 is a reference to the Jewish believers who are in that church and segment #2 are those who are called gentiles. One must understand and accept this truth if he will understand the "mystery of Christ," which is the theme of the epistle. These things have been hidden "in God," Paul says, until God chose him to make these things known in this age that he names "the dispensation of the grace of God." The mystery, for those who desire a nutshell verse to state this mystery, I direct you to chapter 3, verse 6.
It was not a mystery that God had promised his people, the Jews, that he would save them and give them his Holy Spirit to indwell them and give them life. What he had not mentioned until the door of faith was opened to the gentiles by Peter in Acts 10, is that he was forming a new thing in the earth, called the church, with both Jews and gentiles with equal status as "children of God though the new birth." This would also be his body and his bride and the pattern for this new relationship was prefigured in the creation of Eve, from the sleeping body of Adam and then presented to him as his bride and his wife. So, by the time this letter was written, there had been 20 years of church experience for Jews and gentiles and because of former relationships and covenants with the Jewish nation an explanation from God himself would be necessary for an understanding of what he was doing in this age. His integrity is also on the line if he does not fulfill all his covenant promises concerning a kingdom, a nation, the land, and a King to his covenant people, the Jews. This he will do when the church of Jesus Christ is complete.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
The cross of Jesus Christ was a major change for both Jews and gentiles and his death and resurrection made the way for God to forgive sins and remain a just God in doing it. The apostle in this epistle declared that the church of Jesus Christ IS the wisdom of God on display.
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
One can see in the whole of Eph 2 that these two groups of believers are noted and are present and that the first group, the Jews, are being saved on the basis of OT promises to them while the gentile believers are being saved on the principlal of grace, simply because God had made no promises to them that he was obligated to keep.
Thank God for his grace and mercy.
The church of Jesus Christ is a new creation in Christ Jesus and is different from Israel with different history and destination and relationship with God. The church of Jesus Christ is formed by believers from both groupsuntil 70 AD when the Jewish national identity was suspended and the scattered Jews were incorporated into gentile cultures and under their authorities and was thus considered by God as gentiles. It was at this time that the church took on a gentile character. One must understand though, that the church possesses the trinitarian signature in it's creation, Jew, gentile, and the Spirit of Christ.
@JD731, you are attempting to segregate the letter to the Ephesians as though the church is two different entities of Jew and Gentile. That is false. Paul always works to show both Jew and Gentile that there is no no longer Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, male nor female. Why, then, do you attempt to segregate where God has no segregation?
Ephesians 2:1-10 is straightforward and you refuse to acknowledge what God is telling you.
(Ephesians 2:1-10)
Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else. But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
Ephesians 2:1-10 is straightforward and you refuse to acknowledge what God is telling you.
(Ephesians 2:1-10)
Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else. But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
Taisto, I did not direct my last comments to you because I am not arguing with you about how to read words and understand definitions. In Ephesians 2, the pronouns are very important when they are associated with time frames and previous relationships with these two groups. What you have posted here as Ephesians 2:1-10 is not even close to what it says and no one reading that garbled mess will ever be able to understand the mystery of Christ.
Here is the real words of Ephesians 2:1-10, that honors the division of the letter and maintains the pronouns that designates the groups.
Eph 2: And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The next verse identifies the "ye" of this letter.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Obviously Paul is speaking of two groups when he uses words like also, together, ye, our, both, and he makes a distiction that gentiles are saved by "grace" through faith. The principle during the apostolic age by which Jews were being saved was the principle of "promise." After they rejected Jesus Christ, they were saved by grace as well as the gentiles, they being rekoned by God as gentiles, the nation dispersed.
I may post some more on this thread but I am not going to argue with you about the English language and how to read and understand it.
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