Why follow the world honoring Easter & Christmas

[EdSutton]

Hello again HankD, and happy to be back "computin".

We just approach this subject from different perspectives of what we know. I endeavor to see what the Bible has to say about things such as this. No doubt the angels and the heavenly host celebrated Jesus' birthday. The problem, according to the Bible, is that the shepherds were in the field watching over their sheep by night. At this time the shepherds did not have their sheep out in the wintertime. They housed them, and fed them in a Manger, in the winter time. Jesus was born in a manger, and the reason he was is because the manger was not in use. The sheep were out feeding in the fields, and not feeding from the manger. Sheep eat grass in the fields in spring, summer, and fall months, and winter they ate hay or other grain from a manger. There are other reasons we know December is out of the question, and all biblical information points to Jesus being born the latter parts of September, or early October. What would the sheep be feeding on in the winter? In the morning they would be eating GRASS in the fields, and there is no GRASS to eat in the winter.
I personally go along with the commercial part of Christmas, but not of the spirit taking Christmas into the church, or honoring this date as the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ. I do not fault or judge you in what you do as you believe differently than I, and are unaware of certain things. I only endeavor to inform of what the Bible says, and not what man says is truth.
We use the vernacular of the day as the days are how we identify a day in the week. Also the Christian does not go to the Temple, or the church on the Sabbath. If we did we would do as Israel did when God recognized them as His people. We would number our days. But we are not Israel today. I notice we Christians most often refer to Sunday as the first day of the week, and as we are not Israel we continue to use what has been accepted by we Gentiles and the names of the week. We render unto Caesar (the worldly things), and to God the things that are God's.

This is the reason I go along with the commercial part of Christmas, but avoid worshiping on this day, in church or out, His Birthday on December 25. I believe what I find in the Bible, and not what man wishes me to think. Again. unto Caesar what he gives us, and that is a "commercial and worldly Christmas."
Perhaps it would be good to question the founding fathers of the Baptist church as to the beginning of Wednesday to be the chosen for "prayer meeting".

It Is best to know certain facts and one is the French Christians do not connect "Woden" to Wednesday, but the "planet Mercury". Pagan also, to be sure, and the heathen had names of the week, all from Pagan origins, before Christianity was known. Christianity accepted these names. Why would we today try to connect what was accepted by them to Christmas, and Easter that did not even exist?

The Apostles knew when Jesus was born. If they had set aside the birthday of Jesus, or an Easter Sunday, why didn't they tell us about this? Circa 300 years later a man brought these pagan Holidays into the church. I believe the Bible and not Constantine.

Neither the "circumcised" church in Jerusalem, nor the "uncircumcised churches" of the Gentiles had any such Holy Days. The Apostles knew when Jesus was born, and they make no mention of this fact for evidently the Holy Spirit did not wish for it to be remembered as He knows the heart of man. What would man do? Begin to worship a day, along with their Lord Jesus Christ. God is no longer of this world, for the Son sits beside His Father in heaven. Do we not do our level best trying to "bring Jesus down from heaven" to worship, and remember Him in a worldly manner. Romans 10:6, "But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above).

Our worship and remembering him is "Spiritual" which He plainly asks us to do as we "drink the wine (blood) from the cup". He is no longer of this earth for He is alive today in heaven awaiting His Father to "put all things beneath His feet".

Today the "Jew" (by blood) has been blinded, along with many others in the world, but you and I have been chosen, however we are not in the same part of the Body of Christ? We will be in His Kingdom, whether of earth, or of the heavenlies.
This is, and was known to me, but these names are "heathen" generated before Christianity as explained above. We should not be trying to say we believed as the pagans did before Christianity, and continue to do so after Christianity was founded.

Perhaps you are not reading (thinking this is just ituttut talking) or you are not comprehending my posts. Nowhere have I judged you, but as pointed out presenting scripture to you to accept or deny. Your choice to believe in whom you believe, and why?
You speak to the tongue of man here. If you will look again, all that I offer is the Word of God. We accept His Word, or we reject and believe as man.Do you claim to be perfect? His Word is, and we are to spread it unabashedly.
Acts 13:45-49, "But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49. And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region." I am so glad the two men, and them only, were sent to give light to the Gentiles.

Enveloped with me HankD in…….

Three things:

First, I too, believe that Jesus was born in the 'fall' of the year, although I would probably gravitate more towards around the first of October, if pushed, but have no particular problem with late September. (It is also about equally possible that I am about six months off, in my extrapolating, as well, the key being the time of service as Priest, by Zacharias.)

Secondly, I'm not exactly sure that one can read more into the fact that there were shepherds "out in the field" than is actually there. I heard almost 40 years ago in Bible College, but admit I cannot confirm the fact, that the "Temple Flocks" for the sacrifices (unlike, generally, the privately owned flocks) were kept outside "year round" in the environs of Jerusalem and Bethlehem, in an area known as 'Migdal Eder', if my memory does not fail me, and that according to tradition, this is where the Angel appeared to the shepherds. Regardless, the climate of Israel is a Mediterranean type of climate, with far milder winters than we see here, say, in KY, where I live. Hence, in times of even relatively good weather, sheep and cattle generally fare better overall outside in the open, than crammed up in a high humidity inside environment. Keeps down diseases and even limited grazing is a bonus, not to mention the hauling away of less manure, and having to spread it the old fashioned way, with a pitchfork, as I have done as a much younger person!

Third, I'm not that sure the apostles knew exactly when the birth of the Lord was (or even his exact age), considering the gospel writer says Jesus was "around thirty years old" beginning his public ministry, although at least some surely would have known something about Augustus' census decree, I would suspect. Much as I don't really know much about the Korean War, even though I was born in 1948, but I am aware of it, and I would suspect far more so, than my 10 nieces and nephews, all of whom range from about 15 - 33 years old, for an example. I'm personally just not sure the Holy Spirit ever intended for us to know the exact date and time of Jesus' birth, here.

Fourth, I'm fairly sure the animals, would have had no problem with 'giving up' a portion of their manger to Jesus when He was born. Animals don't seem to have too much problem 'listening' to God, pace Balaam's ass, and the ram in the thicket for Abraham, unlike some of us human beings, pace Balaam.

In fact, one might even ask which one was the real "dumb ass", in the account of Balaam.

Ed

 

[sag38]

Well, it's off to the children's easter party. We will tell them about Jesus and then let them hunt eggs filled with candy. Wait a minute, we can't do that because its not directly found in the Bible. But, I won't let the grace robbers spoil an opportunity to share Christ and to have fun watching little johnny walk right by the same egg ten times as he complains to his momma that there aren't any more eggs to be found. Last year a lady brought her two children to our Easter party. Little did we know that she was without the Lord. Because we showed interest in her children she and her husband started coming to church. Then they started coming to Sunday School. And, in due time I baptized her on her profession of faith. Did the same with her oldest son. Her husband was born again but had become disillusioned. Now he is serving the Lord and is a great sound tech. Grace Robbers inhibit the church from reaching people like this family who needed the Lord by telling us what we can and cannot do based not on scriptural mandates but on their own opinions.

 

[JerryL]

Well ituttut, I think in these pages of posts you have found your answer. There is another thread that goes well with this one, "Grace Robbers."

 

[sag38]

I just sat down in my office after our "Easter Party." I've been praying for a young woman who visited my church a couple of months ago on a Wednesday evening. She moved here from up north. She has some hang ups about church and is more than likely lost. Anyway, I've been praying for her almost everyday. And, guess what? She showed up, with her kids, at the "Easter Party." And, while she's still not there yet I can tell that God is working just from talking with her for a few minutes. God is going to save that family. I just know it. And, isn't ironic, that had we listened to the "grace robbers" another opportunity to reach a family for Christ would have been lost.

 

[HankD]

Hello again HankD, and happy to be back "computin".

We just approach this subject from different perspectives of what we know. I endeavor to see what the Bible has to say about things such as this. No doubt the angels and the heavenly host celebrated Jesus' birthday. The problem, according to the Bible, is that the shepherds were in the field watching over their sheep by night. At this time the shepherds did not have their sheep out in the wintertime. They housed them, and fed them in a Manger, in the winter time. Jesus was born in a manger, and the reason he was is because the manger was not in use. The sheep were out feeding in the fields, and not feeding from the manger. Sheep eat grass in the fields in spring, summer, and fall months, and winter they ate hay or other grain from a manger. There are other reasons we know December is out of the question, and all biblical information points to Jesus being born the latter parts of September, or early October. What would the sheep be feeding on in the winter? In the morning they would be eating GRASS in the fields, and there is no GRASS to eat in the winter.
I personally go along with the commercial part of Christmas, but not of the spirit taking Christmas into the church, or honoring this date as the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ. I do not fault or judge you in what you do as you believe differently than I, and are unaware of certain things. I only endeavor to inform of what the Bible says, and not what man says is truth.
We use the vernacular of the day as the days are how we identify a day in the week. Also the Christian does not go to the Temple, or the church on the Sabbath. If we did we would do as Israel did when God recognized them as His people. We would number our days. But we are not Israel today. I notice we Christians most often refer to Sunday as the first day of the week, and as we are not Israel we continue to use what has been accepted by we Gentiles and the names of the week. We render unto Caesar (the worldly things), and to God the things that are God's.

This is the reason I go along with the commercial part of Christmas, but avoid worshiping on this day, in church or out, His Birthday on December 25. I believe what I find in the Bible, and not what man wishes me to think. Again. unto Caesar what he gives us, and that is a "commercial and worldly Christmas."
Perhaps it would be good to question the founding fathers of the Baptist church as to the beginning of Wednesday to be the chosen for "prayer meeting".

It Is best to know certain facts and one is the French Christians do not connect "Woden" to Wednesday, but the "planet Mercury". Pagan also, to be sure, and the heathen had names of the week, all from Pagan origins, before Christianity was known. Christianity accepted these names. Why would we today try to connect what was accepted by them to Christmas, and Easter that did not even exist?

The Apostles knew when Jesus was born. If they had set aside the birthday of Jesus, or an Easter Sunday, why didn't they tell us about this? Circa 300 years later a man brought these pagan Holidays into the church. I believe the Bible and not Constantine.

Neither the "circumcised" church in Jerusalem, nor the "uncircumcised churches" of the Gentiles had any such Holy Days. The Apostles knew when Jesus was born, and they make no mention of this fact for evidently the Holy Spirit did not wish for it to be remembered as He knows the heart of man. What would man do? Begin to worship a day, along with their Lord Jesus Christ. God is no longer of this world, for the Son sits beside His Father in heaven. Do we not do our level best trying to "bring Jesus down from heaven" to worship, and remember Him in a worldly manner. Romans 10:6, "But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above).

Our worship and remembering him is "Spiritual" which He plainly asks us to do as we "drink the wine (blood) from the cup". He is no longer of this earth for He is alive today in heaven awaiting His Father to "put all things beneath His feet".

Today the "Jew" (by blood) has been blinded, along with many others in the world, but you and I have been chosen, however we are not in the same part of the Body of Christ? We will be in His Kingdom, whether of earth, or of the heavenlies.
This is, and was known to me, but these names are "heathen" generated before Christianity as explained above. We should not be trying to say we believed as the pagans did before Christianity, and continue to do so after Christianity was founded.

Perhaps you are not reading (thinking this is just ituttut talking) or you are not comprehending my posts. Nowhere have I judged you, but as pointed out presenting scripture to you to accept or deny. Your choice to believe in whom you believe, and why?
You speak to the tongue of man here. If you will look again, all that I offer is the Word of God. We accept His Word, or we reject and believe as man.Do you claim to be perfect? His Word is, and we are to spread it unabashedly.
Acts 13:45-49, "But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49. And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region." I am so glad the two men, and them only, were sent to give light to the Gentiles.

Enveloped with me HankD in…….

Dear Ituttut,

Well, I did use the word "commemorate" because I don't know if December is the month in which He was born. Probably not, in my estimation, thus, the word “commemorate".

Additionally, the climate in Israel can be conducive to year round green grass. This depends more on rainfall than temperature in these kinds of climates.

As I sit here in the Olympia-Shelton area of Washington State, I have green grass from last year on my lawn (my son has mowed it several time) in spite of many frost days and about 4 snowfalls.

In one sense, I celebrate/commemorate His birth (as well as His death burial and resurrection) every day of my life as I believe you do as well.

And yes, I realize the benefit of the commercialization of the secular Christmas season to our secular economy and I am thankful for that while none-the-less trying personally to avoid an over-kill in that direction.

Personally and IMO there really is no excuse or reasoning for a Christian to practice any Pagan tradition apart from the fact that we do not practice
the essence of the content, ritual or forms of worship and idolatry that the Pagans in their hay-day did.

To be perfectly free and pure of idolatry we would, as one poster put it, have to go out of the world.

As I have shown from Scripture before, we break the following commandment every day:

Exodus 20
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Do you have coins or paper money in you pocket, wallet?
These are covered with en-graven-ments of created things, dead men, etc.

In fact on the dollar bill (our signature unit of currency) is the "all-seeing eye" of Isis-Horus (mother-son goddess-god) atop the Great Pyramid along with several other created beings.

Final note: No, I do not believe you are judging me Ituttut.Often times there can misunderstanding from a printed only dialogue. You have made no accusations. As far as I am concerned we are having a gracious Christian debate. However, rather than using the phrase "presenting scripture to you to accept or deny" I personally prefer and use something like the phrase "to interpret in light of the whole counsel of God" or parts thereof.

As to perfection, some day brother, someday.

...Even so, come, Lord Jesus.


Have a blessed Lord's Day Ituttut.

HankD

 

[John of Japan]

To be perfectly free and pure of idolatry we would, as one poster put it, have to go out of the world.

As I have shown from Scripture before, we break the following commandment every day:

Exodus 20
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Do you have coins or paper money in you pocket, wallet?
These are covered with en-graven-ments of created things, dead men, etc.

In fact on the dollar bill (our signature unit of currency) is the "all-seeing eye" of Isis-Horus (mother-son goddess-god) atop the Great Pyramid along with several other created beings.

Hank, I ask you to think more deeply about idolatry. Simply having an image is not idolatry. If it were, than God would have been encouraging idolatry by commanding the Jews to make images of cherubim for the ark. Again, God commanded Moses to make a brazen image of a serpent, but that was not idolatry. Other examples could be given.

In order for an image to be an idol, it must be for the purpose of bowing and serving. Or, if not, it must be perverted to the purpose as the image of the brazen serpent was. The Japanese understand this, and distinguish clearly between Shinto or Buddhistic images that are made to be bowed down to, and artistic images.

Notice that the Hebrew word used for image in Ex. 20 is pecel. With the verse immediately preceding, it is clear that idolatrous images are meant, not all images. In every other usage of this word in the OT it specifically is used for idol images that people bowed down to. However, there is another Hebrew word for image, tselem, which does not always mean an idol.

 

[HankD]

Hank, I ask you to think more deeply about idolatry. Simply having an image is not idolatry. If it were, than God would have been encouraging idolatry by commanding the Jews to make images of cherubim for the ark. Again, God commanded Moses to make a brazen image of a serpent, but that was not idolatry. Other examples could be given.

In order for an image to be an idol, it must be for the purpose of bowing and serving. Or, if not, it must be perverted to the purpose as the image of the brazen serpent was. The Japanese understand this, and distinguish clearly between Shinto or Buddhistic images that are made to be bowed down to, and artistic images.

Notice that the Hebrew word used for image in Ex. 20 is pecel. With the verse immediately preceding, it is clear that idolatrous images are meant, not all images. In every other usage of this word in the OT it specifically is used for idol images that people bowed down to. However, there is another Hebrew word for image, tselem, which does not always mean an idol.

I have thought this through brother JoJ and rather than rethink my position,I will take the opportunity to expand my point of view because I believe we are in agreement.

The use of these articles you have mentioned above were for the public use of worship of Jehovah by His people Israel under the Law and were the only exception to the rule against the use of graven images (the exception makes the rule). After all God makes the rules as well as He it is who makes the exceptions to those rules.

Just because God makes an exception to the rule as He did with the Cherubim within the Holy of Holies or the brass serpent, does not negate the general rule or the reiterated specifics of the general rule.

The private use of these articles under the Law were strictly forbidden.

The private ownership of these entities without any mention of worship were an abomination to God according to His word.

Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.​

What I was debating without saying so in so many words is that we of this age are not under the Law as long as we are led of the Spirit by means of the Word of God.​

Christians however are also given through the precepts of the Word of God to avoid and yes even flee idolatry in this age.​

1 Corinthians 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.​

1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.​

1 Corinthians 10
19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.​

2 Corinthians 6:12
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
​

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

And in the final days of the end of this world (age) in the Revelation (Revelation 2:14; 2:20, 9:20; 21:8; and 22:14), idols and idolatry are
at least in part, the provocation of the wrath of God upon the inhabited world.​

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk.​

Now if these entities, traditions, practices, rituals, etc are cultural and not connected anymore to worship, especially the worship of the false gods (who are in reality demons) behind them, then yes, this is part of our allowable Christian Liberty such as the Japanese cultural respect (but not worship) of the dead. No more than myself bringing flowers on a visit to the graveside of my parents as a memoriam (which has a connection to Paganism).​

HankD​

 

[Magnetic Poles]

To the title of the thread...I don't think anyone "honors" Xmas or Easter...they honor Jesus, which you can do on any day of the year.

 

[ituttut]

Three things:
First, I too, believe that Jesus was born in the 'fall' of the year, although I would probably gravitate more towards around the first of October, if pushed, but have no particular problem with late September. (It is also about equally possible that I am about six months off, in my extrapolating, as well, the key being the time of service as Priest, by Zacharias.)

What you and I know is Christmas comes from man.

Secondly, I'm not exactly sure that one can read more into the fact that there were shepherds "out in the field" than is actually there. I heard almost 40 years ago in Bible College, but admit I cannot confirm the fact, that the "Temple Flocks" for the sacrifices (unlike, generally, the privately owned flocks) were kept outside "year round" in the environs of Jerusalem and Bethlehem, in an area known as 'Migdal Eder', if my memory does not fail me, and that according to tradition, this is where the Angel appeared to the shepherds.

Could this be true? If so, the fact remains that the manger was not being used. This would indicate that all sheep were out in the field feeding. There was not one sheep feeding at the trough where Jesus laid, or I'm sure we would have been made aware of the presence of an animal, or animals at the birth of Jesus. It amuses me we find at Christmas, even in some of our Baptist churches, little statues with sheep present as Mary holds Him, or He lies in the Manger, and the three (as the world believes) wise men there also. How Catholic we have become in our thought, and churches (most).

Regardless, the climate of Israel is a Mediterranean type of climate, with far milder winters than we see here, say, in KY, where I live. Hence, in times of even relatively good weather, sheep and cattle generally fare better overall outside in the open, than crammed up in a high humidity inside environment. Keeps down diseases and even limited grazing is a bonus, not to mention the hauling away of less manure, and having to spread it the old fashioned way, with a pitchfork, as I have done as a much younger person!

Hard work to be sure - I never pitched hay, but unloaded box cars one summer break from school, with some heavy lifting, five days a week. I still find these shepherds did not have their "flocks" in Bethlehem, but out in the fields, which could have been at the lower elevation of the mountains of Bethlehem. We don't know the time frame the Angels allowed for the Shepherds to arrive to see Jesus, but they said "Let us now go even unto Bethlehem". Where I live the elevation is considered being 450 ft. and we get snow or sleet almost every year, and temperatures vary greatly in the winter, estimating 15 or so scattered days in the 20's, down to lower teens, occasionally lower. Bethlehem itself is around 2,300 ft, so I would image the temperature would not vary as much, and would be somewhat colder on a sustained basis. Is it possible anyone, shepherd or not, would be out day and night in the winter time at 2,300 ft.

Third, I'm not that sure the apostles knew exactly when the birth of the Lord was (or even his exact age), considering the gospel writer says Jesus was "around thirty years old" beginning his public ministry, although at least some surely would have known something about Augustus' census decree, I would suspect.

You seem to agree God didn't intend for us to know, but I'm putting this in, as it has helped to know for sure on this matter. Jesus' Mom and Dad knew, as did Jesus' brothers and sister's, John the Baptist, and other "kin folks" of the family. The Apostles would have known, viz. John. It seems very obvious to me God did not intend for us to know the exact day Jesus was born. Nowhere can we find in the Bible the Jew observing Birthdays, or the early church. If they had we would then know the exact day Jesus was born, as the Apostolic church in Jerusalem would have taken part in, as would the Christian church in Antioch, and all the other Christian churches in that day.

Much as I don't really know much about the Korean War, even though I was born in 1948, but I am aware of it, and I would suspect far more so, than my 10 nieces and nephews, all of whom range from about 15 - 33 years old, for an example. I'm personally just not sure the Holy Spirit ever intended for us to know the exact date and time of Jesus' birth, here.

I lean the other way, for I find scripture confirms. As info I was called to active duty in 1950, USMC.

Fourth, I'm fairly sure the animals, would have had no problem with 'giving up' a portion of their manger to Jesus when He was born. Animals don't seem to have too much problem 'listening' to God, pace Balaam's ass, and the ram in the thicket for Abraham, unlike some of us human beings, pace Balaam.

In fact, one might even ask which one was the real "dumb ass", in the account of Balaam.

Ha!Ha! I like that. The fact remains the shepherds were watching over their flock by night. As we read further scripture shows the Shepherds went directly to where they knew a manger was empty. The Shepherds knew were this particular "Manger" was for this is where they had taken the sheep from, into the field to feed.

 

[John of Japan]

Now if these entities, traditions, practices, rituals, etc are cultural and not connected anymore to worship, especially the worship of the false gods (who are in reality demons) behind them, then yes, this is part of our allowable Christian Liberty such as the Japanese cultural respect (but not worship) of the dead. No more than myself bringing flowers on a visit to the graveside of my parents as a memoriam (which has a connection to Paganism).​

HankD​

Okay, brother, sounds like we're on the same page. God bless. :wavey:

 

[ituttut]

Well, it's off to the children's easter party. We will tell them about Jesus and then let them hunt eggs filled with candy. Wait a minute, we can't do that because its not directly found in the Bible. But, I won't let the grace robbers spoil an opportunity to share Christ and to have fun watching little johnny walk right by the same egg ten times as he complains to his momma that there aren't any more eggs to be found.

How did the Bunny Rabbits, and ISTER, or EASTER EGGs enter into the Church. While the Apostles lived no Jewish Jerusalem Temple "circumcised worshipper turned to "idol worship", nor did any "uncircumcised" Christian in the churches outside of Judah.

Facts are facts, and the Bible confirms facts in this matter that Christmas and Easter were unknown to all the Apostles, or any of their followers during the first century. They did not need "outside stimulation" to prod them on to remember their Lord Jesus Christ. In the third century these pagan practices entered A Church, and not the 1st century while an Apostle lived. Upon entry into a church, that church kept the dates of the pagan gods, but changed the names to Christmas (to denote the birthday of Jesus), and the renewing of life (Easter), with the EGG.

You can believe what you will, (I'll not judge)and I am happy with that for you believe what you believe. But if 2+2=4, which is a fact, would you deny same? The fact is Christmas and Easter is of man. Shouldn't we believe the Bible and not what some church tells us was Jesus' birthday, and His resurrection day. The Passover date never changes from Nisan 14, which means the date of our Lord's resurrection and emergence from the tomb is always on Nisan 18, regardless of the day. December is a false date, as is the Easter dates, unless one should fall on Nisan 18.

What follows is not what ituttut says but scripture, as I will always present, and not words of man. In 2007, Easter was observed by many on Sunday, April 8, or the Hebrew Nisan 20. But Nisan 14, the day of preparation (Passover) when Jesus was crucified (John 19:31) fell on a Tuesday in 2007. Why would anyone of biblical knowledge accept a resurrection day six (6) days after Jesus was put in the earth? To help with understanding please also read, along with John 19:31, about the Passover in Leviticus 23:5-7. Most do not know what my name implies. Truth is presented, and not from the worldly mind I have, and fight against. We study so that we may be "approved".

Of interest or not I also join in secular celebration at Christmas, and Easter, for I see nothing wrong as they fit into this world, and mean nothing to be spiritual. But neither of these should be brought into a Christian church as "gospel" presented to us by the Apostles, whether of the "kingdom Church", or the "Body Church" explained to us by our Lord Jesus in Heaven.

Last year a lady brought her two children to our Easter party. Little did we know that she was without the Lord. Because we showed interest in her children she and her husband started coming to church. Then they started coming to Sunday School. And, in due time I baptized her on her profession of faith. Did the same with her oldest son. Her husband was born again but had become disillusioned. Now he is serving the Lord and is a great sound tech. Grace Robbers inhibit the church from reaching people like this family who needed the Lord by telling us what we can and cannot do based not on scriptural mandates but on their own opinions.

Grace robbers? Please tell me more about these GRACE Robbers, and who are they? They must be awfully strong to grab Grace away from God. Can you be more specific?

 

[ituttut]

Well ituttut, I think in these pages of posts you have found your answer. There is another thread that goes well with this one, "Grace Robbers."

Perhaps you could start your own, and I will answer.

 

[tinytim]

How did the Bunny Rabbits, ...enter into the Church.

Hopped in?:laugh: :wavey:

 

[J.D.]

Grace robbers? Please tell me more about these GRACE Robbers, and who are they? They must be awfully strong to grab Grace away from God. Can you be more specific?

Well ittut, it looks like me and you make it two - grace robbers, that is.

 

[HankD]

Okay, brother, sounds like we're on the same page. God bless. :wavey:

And you as well JoJ in your labor of love with our brothers and sisters in Japan.

HankD

 

[ituttut]

Hello yourself, friend ituttut.

An alternate celebration is sometimes needed because Japanese new believers tend to have a hard time understanding what is wrong with idolatry. They also are very sensitive about looking bad in front of relatives by abandoning their cultural idolatry--the famed Asian "saving face." An alternate celebration protects Japanese believers from temptation, and we are taught by our Lord to pray, "Lead us not into temptation."

Sad to see the Japanese see nothing wrong with idolatry, but are these Christian Japanese that have read the Bible?

If I may brother John, say I find Matthew 6:13 will contradict the whole of the Bible if we leave standing the wording in this scripture. We find James 1:13 saying no man is tempted of God. In the International English Bible we have a much better understanding of translation, which fits in with other scripture. "Keep us away from temptation. Rescue us from the evil one. The word "lead" inserted in the KJV, and others are in error, as from all other scripture we know God will not lead anyone into temptation. I just cannot feature God saying, "OK, now I'm leading the charge and you follow me into temptation."

We have "trials and tests" sent our way to prove us. We see this in John 6:5-6, and other places. Also check out ASV, NAS, NJ, NLT, ISV, and WMT.

Another thing most all people fail to realize is that this Lord's Prayer to His Apostles is for the "tribulation" period (and before), for if Israel had accepted Messiah, not only would the "kingdom that was hand" come, but first the "tribulation would have to come". Prophecy demands it. Do we believe scripture of Daniel, and others, those that MADE COVENANT with God? Do we believe scripture that God is coming in great wrath against His people, the ones that returned to idol worship, to become as they were before He spread His skirt over them in Love? Why would I pray this Apostles Prayer of the " earthly Kingdom to come Church"? Aren't we looking for the "rapture" first? If we are in the "Body Church" and alive at the time of the "rapture", we will not be left on this earth to be "tested".

Christ told us, "You shall be my witnesses." I use Christmas and Easter as chances to proclaim Christ here in Japan. I give out Christmas tracts that give the Gospell, and every Christmas I have a standing invitation to freely proclaim Christ at the Christmas program of a non-Christian kindergarten. Do you actually think I should let such chances to proclaim Christ slip on by? I'd rather obey Christ and be His witness at such times.

Dear Brother John, I really don't know to say here, other than it is erroneous to say, "We worship today, which is Christmas, December 25 for this is the day Jesus was born. This is not biblical but a "religious belief" all the churches have now picked up on, as well as the world. The world is not expected to understand or know the truth, but we should.

I also believe the same for Easter, as it is also a man made thing for His coming forth from the earth was on Nisan 18, and does not change over to some Sunday of each year. Are we not overruling what the Holy Spirit presents as to His death (Passover) and the number of days necessary before Jesus immerged alive from the earth to ascend into heaven? Our "remembering Him on these days" or any other days were not requested, and believe not approved of Him. Every day with Jesus is better than the day before, and I remember Him, just as He requested, not adding or taking away anything. Others may do as they believe, but I'll not judge one on what they do, but inform on what scripture says.

We do many things that the Bible does not advocate--but neither does it condemn.

So we say, we will do as we please, and add to His Word of how we worship Him, which worship we now do, is not what He told us to do.

Where in the Bible does it say we must not celebrate the birth of Christ and the resurrection of Christ?

Agree with you John, as it doesn't. But what it does tell us is what He wants us to do. We are to remember Him as He wishes and that is with the Bread and the Wine. This is not enough for most people, but it is for me, for we have specific instructions of how we are to remember Him. I just cannot go along with the world on such things for I believe what He says.

Beware that you do not add to Scripture by saying what it does not say. I say we should take every chance to celebrate Christ and proclaim Him, as long as the Bible does not forbid it, and it is not unethical or immoral.

Fuzzy thinking John for who is it that is adding to His Word? I you will read closely, I have said don't do it. I have said nothing of myself, but presented scripture

 

[Pastor Larry]

Why follow the world honoring Easter & Christmas

If you are following the world in honoring these days, then you should stop and repent. And you should lay off the rest of us who are not following the world when we honor our Lord at Christmas and Easter. Perhaps one day your conscience will be sufficiently trained according to Scripture to be able to celebrate our Lord's birth and resurrection with the church.

 

[ituttut]

They also itched a lot.

Follow the "holy day" practices to their origins: Pontifex Maximus, etal,for the past 1600 years. (snipped)

Bro. James, I see knowledge and wisdom shown in your post.

 

[John of Japan]

Sad to see the Japanese see nothing wrong with idolatry, but are these Christian Japanese that have read the Bible?

If I may brother John, say I find Matthew 6:13 will contradict the whole of the Bible if we leave standing the wording in this scripture. We find James 1:13 saying no man is tempted of God. In the International English Bible we have a much better understanding of translation, which fits in with other scripture. "Keep us away from temptation. Rescue us from the evil one. The word "lead" inserted in the KJV, and others are in error, as from all other scripture we know God will not lead anyone into temptation. I just cannot feature God saying, "OK, now I'm leading the charge and you follow me into temptation."

We have "trials and tests" sent our way to prove us. We see this in John 6:5-6, and other places. Also check out ASV, NAS, NJ, NLT, ISV, and WMT.

There is no way we are going to agree on this. The Sermon on the Mount is of tremendous blessing for us, right here and right now. If we get started on this subject it will take forever for me to (1) explain the Japanese and how they think and (2) debate your ultra dispensationalism. (I am a dispensationalist, but forgive me, you go much too far.)

Dear Brother John, I really don't know to say here, other than it is erroneous to say, "We worship today, which is Christmas, December 25 for this is the day Jesus was born. This is not biblical but a "religious belief" all the churches have now picked up on, as well as the world. The world is not expected to understand or know the truth, but we should.

Since celebrating Christ's birth and resurrection are not forbidden in Scripture, but on the contrary we are to proclaim and exalt Christ at all times, I'll continue to proclaim and exalt Christ to the Japanese through tracts, messages and sermons. The exact day is incidental to me. Christ Himself is all in all. And I'll do it in such a way that the worldly practices are not glorified through me but Christ is glorified.

Agree with you John, as it doesn't. But what it does tell us is what He wants us to do. We are to remember Him as He wishes and that is with the Bread and the Wine. This is not enough for most people, but it is for me, for we have specific instructions of how we are to remember Him. I just cannot go along with the world on such things for I believe what He says.Fuzzy thinking John for who is it that is adding to His Word? I you will read closely, I have said don't do it. I have said nothing of myself, but presented scripture

As long as you don't forbid people, you are not adding to Scripture. There are those who do, though, and call us terrible sinners who celebrate the Lord Jesus Christ at those times.

As for specific instructions in the Bible about how we are to remember our Lord and Savior, that is true. Are you then saying that we must never magnify Jesus Christ in any other way than what is specifically commanded in Scripture? If you are, then that's just plain ridiculous.

John the Baptist said, "I must decrease, but He must increase." That is my position. I long for Christ to increase in my life so that everything I do brings glory to Him. Everything, absolutely everything should bring glory to Christ (1 Cor. 10:31). And if I invent new ways not mentioned in the Bible to bring glory to Christ, I hardly think that displeases God.

 

[ituttut]

You and I have been over this at least once and perhaps twice before. Why do it again?

The third time is the charm. Ed I remember we had an exchange on the matter last year, but it was cut short for you had no reply to my proof Wednesday is the only day that Jesus could have been crucified on. I can prove Wednesday, and you cannot prove Thursday, and we both know Friday is ridiculous.