Why free choice is neccessary

[Brad12d3]

I would like to explain why free will is necessary for us to fulfill God's greatest commandment and how we can establish a true and solid foundation for our belief system.


First, I would like to point out that everyone, no matter how good their intentions, how intelligent, or how well educated they may be are all susceptible to selection bias ( Selection bias - Wikipedia ) It doesn't take long to see how selection bias has crept into these debates time and time again in the past. People on both sides of the argument have their artillery of verses they fire out to prove their point. Perhaps this is why these debates are still unresolved after all this time?


Let me give you an example. Back in the 1500s the top minds in astronomy believed that the earth stood still and the whole universe revolved around it. The "evidence" was overwhelming. This system was explained scientifically, although it was a bit over complicated, still, it worked out on paper. Any educated person in the field of astronomy could read up on it and conclude that it checked out.



Even the Bible seemed to support this idea. First Chronicles 16:30 states that "the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved." Psalm 104:5 says, "[the Lord] Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever." Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that "The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose."



So when "De Revolutionibus" was published in 1543 and claimed that the earth revolved around the sun, many saw it as heresy and flat out denied the idea. Interestingly, John Calvin preached a sermon after "De Revolutionibus" was published in which he denounced those who "pervert the order of nature" by saying that "the sun does not move and that it is the earth that revolves and that it turns".



Of course, we now know that John Calvin along with many highly educated scientists at the time were fundamentally wrong about how our universe worked.



I would also like to pose a question for you to ponder. Has there ever been anything you believed without a doubt only to later discover that you were wrong or misinformed? I certainly have. I believe it's a healthy step in growth to move past misinformed ideas and challenge my thinking. I am comfortable questioning my own beliefs because I want to understand why I believe what I do and most importantly what the truth really is. Often this involves focusing on the foundation of the issue and once I understand what the true foundation is then I can begin building on top of that.



So what I would like to do is focus on the foundation of God and faith. I believe that if we can gain a solid understanding of this point then we can test the validity of our other beliefs against it to see if they pass muster. I have yet to have anyone give me a straight and concise answer to the following:



I think it's fair that LOVE is a prime candidate for discussion.

After all, GOD IS LOVE 1 John 4:8

Loving God is also the GREATEST commandment. Mark 12:28-30



What is the Biblical definition of love? It most definitely is not a warm fuzzy feeling or saying 3 words over and over. No, it is:



Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7



Can we all agree on what we have just established?

- God is love

- The greatest commandment is to love God

- love is described accurately in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7



What 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 lists are all ACTIONS that REQUIRE FREE CHOICE. If my friend Matt sits and listens to me ramble on for 2 hours about all my problems then I could say that Matt was practicing PATIENCE and therefore was loving towards me. He CHOSE to stay and listen and not leave 10 minutes in annoyed with me.



Now if I tied Matt to the chair and made him sit there for 2 hours listening to me ramble then I would not say that he was patient or that he was loving towards me. Why? Because it wasn't his choice to be there, it was my choice for him to be there. I was serving myself at best.



This can be applied to everything listed in the definition of love. Love is not a warm fuzzy feeling or something we say... it is a collection of actions that REQUIRE US TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO FREELY CHOOSE OR NOT CHOOSE TO PERFORM THESE ACTIONS.

This is a logic and continuity that God brought into existence with his creation.


So in order for us to be able TO LOVE GOD then we must also posses the ability to NOT LOVE GOD. The faculty of choice must exist for the action of love to happen. That is how we were designed.



I would also like to point out that you can clearly see love being practiced by people from all walks including believers of various religious and nonbelievers. There has been much study into altruism and there is even an interesting analysis in the book "Why Science Does Not Disprove God" by Amir Aczel.

I would argue that every one of these people has the choice to love God or not. Which they choose will determine what their relationship with God is going forward. If for some reason the ability to choose to love or not love God specifically was disabled in all of us then none of us would be able to love God. For God to enable us to love him, he must also enable the ability for us to choose not to love him.



So is your belief system consistent with the fact that loving God also requires the ability to be able to choose not to love God?



If not then you believe that God's greatest commandment to us is something that we are incapable of doing AT ALL. I would view a God that makes contradictory statements to be a major red flag

 

[calledbyHisgrace]

Brad12d3,

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but there's more to it than just this. Consider this verse:

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." (1 John 4:7)

When you hear someone make a comment along this same line, your first instinct may be to assume that this would negate man's choice in the matter.

Of course, if "every man that loveth is born of God" it follows that every man that isn't born of God doesn't love. But don't think that man's choice isn't involved in this.

The foundation that scripture lays, is that all men make the wrong choice. God gives men a choice, and men choose to hate Him.

So, what did God do? He chose some people out of the same world that chose to hate Him:

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." (John 15:18)

"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." (John 15:19)

So, we are no longer part of the world that hates Christ because He chose us out of the world. Our love for Him is proof that we are "born of God". So where does our choice to love come in here? Are we "tied to a chair"?

You're assuming that we believe that God forces us to love Him, which isn't true. In fact, there are a lot of times that we still don't love Him, at least not the way that we should. Does He tie us to a chair and make us pray, make us read our Bibles, make us obey His commandments?

God doesn't force us to love Him, He persuades us to.

 

[tyndale1946]

So Jesus Christ died to give me a choice?... I'm glad my Salvation is not based on my choice... My Salvation is a surety not a choice!... Show me a dead man that has a choice?... Brother Glen

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[calledbyHisgrace]

Jesus died to save His people from their willful sins. If left to ourselves, we never would have chosen Him.
It's true that the natural man is dead in trespasses and in sin, but God didn't create man that way. Man's will isn't what saves him, it's what condemned him.

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (John 3:19)

 

[tyndale1946]

Jesus died to save His people from their willful sins. If left to ourselves, we never would have chosen Him.
It's true that the natural man is dead in trespasses and in sin, but God didn't create man that way. Man's will isn't what saves him, it's what condemned him.

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (John 3:19)

You're are correct, we were incapable of chosing him and that is why he chose us first... Brother Glen

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Then tell me how God uses the will that condemns man to save him, since you say we have free choice?... I believe in the bondage of the will, not the freedom of it.

The Five Fold Bondage Of Man

 

[calledbyHisgrace]

I agree with the things that you said in your post, about man's will. We used our will to condemn ourselves, God used His will to save us. You said:

"And the glory of God’s grace is that, in spite of all our guilt, and all our wicked loves, and all our hatred of his authority, and all our stone-cold deadness to his sweetness, and all our blindness to his glory, this grace saves us in every way from our own utter enslaving desire not to be saved from these things."

I agree that it's man's own enslaving desire for sin that keeps him from God. That's actually my point: God didn't cause the world to hate Him, it chose to. And while He is the originating cause for our love to Him now, it isn't a forced love. We choose to love Him because of the love that He's shed abroad in our hearts.

 

[Benjamin]

So Jesus Christ died to give me a choice?...

Sad that some would deny that others even have a choice or even the genuine hope to believe in the truth. Jesus Christ died to give the hope of God’s grace and mercy to ALL His creatures that He made, which He created in His likeness and image with sense, reason and intellect and which will be truly subject to His judgment, …it is the grace freely given through a response of faith not just to a few who in shame claim their belief must have been forced upon them as one of the lucky pre-chosen.

Rom 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

I'm glad my Salvation is not based on my choice...

It is based on holding the truth in faith, not denying that it can even be known.

Rom 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

My Salvation is a surety not a choice!...

It is a surety that those who hold the truth of the Gospel in unrighteousness will have no excuses which rely upon the inability to know and respond, whether it be for themselves or others.

Pro 11:1-3 A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight. (2) When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom. (3) The integrity of the upright shall guide them: but the perverseness of transgressors shall destroy them.

Show me a dead man that has a choice?...

Obviously your interpretation of the current nature of all men is seriously messed up:

(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


You have no excuse not to respond to truth that is revealed to you of your own free will. Claims of shame and inability will not work…

 

[Dave G]

Sad that some would deny that others even have a choice or even the genuine hope to believe in the truth.

Scripture states that the choice has already been made ( Romans 1:32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ).
Why you keep insisting that men have a choice, when Scripture says that we, as a race, have already made our collective choice against Him, is something that has baffled me since the first day I interacted with you, sir.

The hope is this..." believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."
Do you believe?
Then God's word doesn't stop there.
There are biblical reasons why people believe, and they are right in Scripture.

Jesus Christ died to give the hope of God’s grace and mercy to ALL His creatures that He made, which He created in His likeness and image with sense, reason and intellect and which will be truly subject to His judgment, …it is the grace freely given through a response of faith not just to a few who in shame claim their belief must have been forced upon them as one of the lucky pre-chosen.

He died to save His people ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:15 ).
Sense, reason and intellect have nothing whatsoever to do with man being saved by God's mercy...a person is born again by the will of God, not the will of men ( John 1:13 ).
Mankind can do no work of righteousness, including believing on His Son, without Him being directly responsible for it ( Matthew 11:27, Matthew 16:17, Luke 10:22, John 6:29, John 6:37-44, John 6:64-65, John 17:2, Acts of the Apostles 2:47, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9, Ephesians 1:4-5, Philippians 1:29, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Titus 3:5-6 ).

That is what God's word states, but it seems that you continue to resist it.
Man's will doesn't even factor into God's decision to save a person...but it did factor in to God's decision to damn someone ( Genesis 2:16-17, Romans 5:12 ).

Freedom of choice has resulted in the deaths, both physically and spiritually, of billions.
But it hasn't resulted in the spiritual life of one, single person...only God's freedom of choice, has ( John 17:2, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9:14-18 ).

Obviously your interpretation of the current nature of all men is seriously messed up:

(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


You have no excuse not to respond to truth that is revealed to you of your own free will. Claims of shame and inability will not work…

I disagree.
His interpretation is based on understanding God's word.
To me, yours isn't.

Sinful, unbelieving mankind responding to revealed truth is not what bestows more truth upon him...Scripture never declares that anywhere.
It says, " For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath." ( Matthew 13:12 )


Faith only comes by "hearing" God's word ( Romans 10:17, 1 Corinthians 1:21 ), not by a trail of "spiritual breadcrumbs" that the Lord somehow lays down for all men to follow. No one has ever been "led to the Lord"...they are spiritually called ( Romans 8:30, 1 Corinthians 1:26 ), which is why He tells believers to make their calling and election sure.
As I see it, thinking that mankind can respond to God outside of God doing the work, is fallen human reasoning talking, and not Scripture.

Men are without excuse, all the while hating Him and loving their sin to the point of refusing to repent.
That is what Scripture develops in many places ( Ecclesiastes, Psalms and Proverbs being 3 of them ), and that is what Romans chapters 1-3 specifically lays out...the spiritual condition of all men without the power of God to change them.

Now for some other things Scripture has to say about mankind having the ability to come to Christ on our own:

1 Corinthians 1:18. <---- The preaching of the cross is, to them that perish ( the lost ), foolishness...while to us that are saved, it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14. <----- Man, in his natural state, thinks that the things of the Spirit of God are foolishness ..of which the Gospel of Jesus Christ is one of them...neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4. <----- The Gospel is hid to them that are lost.

I'm not sure why these three don't get your attention, but they make me very sober, because I realize what a rare and special gift I've been given...eternal life ( John 17:3 ).

Yours, if it was based on anything you did, wasn't a gift, it was a reward.

 

[Dave G]

I would like to explain why free will is necessary for us to fulfill God's greatest commandment and how we can establish a true and solid foundation for our belief system.

Between the beginning statement and the ending statement I see 6 passages of Scripture given...the rest is filled in with what I see to be faulty human reasoning.
Despite the well-intentioned treatise I see here, I also see much of Scripture either being ignored, or not understood.
There are 31,101 "verses" in the AV, and it is in these details that the how and why anyone is saved is developed.

God IS love ( 1 John 4:8 )....but He is also willing to show wrath and to make His power known ( Romans 1:18, Romans 9:22-24 ).
His purposes stand and He will do all His will ( Job 23:13, Isaiah 14:24, Isaiah 46:10, Ezekiel 12:25, Amos 3:6 ) and no man can say anything about it.

Election is a fact of Scripture, just as reprobation and many other truths that some men find too terrible to accept.
However, that does not negate the fact that the words are on the pages.

Back in the 1500s the top minds in astronomy believed that the earth stood still and the whole universe revolved around it.

As I see it, mankind still has not learned to trust God's words about the universe as truth, and continues to fall back on their corrupt understanding to explain how it all works.
God's word specifically states that the earth does not move ( Psalms 104:5 ), and the sun moves around it ( Psalms 19:1-6 ).
Stubborn, God-hating men still deny creation and they still deny God's right to rule them.
His Son is coming soon to put all under His feet...and He will rule them with a rod of iron ( Revelation 2:27 ) for a thousand years.

If not then you believe that God's greatest commandment to us is something that we are incapable of doing AT ALL. I would view a God that makes contradictory statements to be a major red flag

Mankind IS incapable of loving God with all his heart, all his mind and all his soul...hatred of God and love of sin take up all the space possible ( Romans 1:32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ).
The Law, of which this commandment is part ( Deuteronomy 6:5 ) was given to show His children that mankind cannot obey it...in fact, all it takes is one sin to ruin everything ( James 2:10 ); the impossibility of obeying it is obvious, to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

The Law was the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ ( Galatians 3:24 ), and was never intended to be obeyed as a rule of life.
Its purpose was always temporary.

I would view a God that makes contradictory statements ( to the carnal mind ) to be mysterious and most of all, an all-powerful and all-knowing ( Job 11:7, Job 36:26, Psalms 90:2, Psalms 93:2, Psalms 104:5, Isaiah 43:13, Jeremiah 10:10, Daniel 4:35, Romans 11:33 ) God worthy of fear and respect, and a God who reveals Himself to any part of rebellious mankind to be merciful, if even to a few ( millions, Revelation 7:9 ), which are many more than a few over the centuries.

I would view a God who hides things from the wise, and reveals them to babes ( Psalms 8:2, Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 ) to be deliberately selective in who He is gracious to ( Exodus 33:19, Malachi 1:1-3, Romans 9:13, Romans 9:14-26, Romans 11:7-8 ), and outside the realm of understanding to all except those to whom He reveals Himself to ( Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22 )...which is His prerogative to do, since we are mere men who have sinned against Him and have nothing to stand on except His mercy and grace.

He is God and there is no other like Him or that can understand Him and His ways.
They are past finding out.

Anything that mankind needs or wants to know about God is found in His word, but that word cannot be fully understood unless a person's mind is opened to it ( Luke 24:45 ) and they are given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven ( Matthew 13:11,Mark 4:11, Luke 8:10 ).

At the end of the day, God makes no contradictory statements...
His children "hear" His words ( John 8:47 ), even though it may take a while for everything to come together through consistent, long periods of study ( 2 Timothy 2:15-16 ).


Free choice is a necessary part of mankind's makeup...made in the image of God, but forever relegated to following after ungodliness unless God rescues us, God gave us over ( Romans 1:26-28 ) to that which we love, and our foolish hearts were darkened.

Our choice has been made, and we cannot change the mess we've made of ourselves...only God can.
But He doesn't do it for everyone.
Eternal life ( John 17:3 ) is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), not of works, lest any man should boast ( Ephesians 2:9 ).



May God bless you sir.

 

[Brad12d3]

So here's the deal, we can lob different verses at each other that support our viewpoint. You can list verses allegedly showing that God chooses people and that we can't choose for ourselves and I can in return list off a bunch of verses that claim that God wants everyone to be saved and that we must choose to be saved. This is why this debate keeps going on and on.

So let's try to look at this logically since God was kind enough to bless us with the gifts of reason and logic.

So there are a lot of replies here so let me boil it down to this:

Some say that we by our nature we are unable to choose to do what is good. Every decision we make is a selfish and sinful one. However, this doesn't explain all the nonbelievers out there practicing genuine altruism and love.

Oh but you would say that these people's actions are universally only selfish acts disguised as altruism and love. OK, that's a pretty bold blanket statement that seems a bit counter-intuitive, so let's examine that more closely. Let's say that we are truly selfish creatures and 100% of our actions are to serve our best interest.

Now, I think it's reasonable to assume that there is some element of risk to reward ratio in our nature. I think we can easily find examples of people choosing not to do something if the risk is far greater than the selfish reward. If someone offered me $100 to jump off the Golden Gate bridge I wouldn't do it, because the strong possibility of dying or being seriously injured is not worth $100 or even $100,000.

So with that being said, why are there nonbelievers out there that risk their lives to save other people or at times even an animal?! If I risk my life to save some random stranger then more often than not my reward is a hearty thank you and maybe a couple of days of local news coverage. That doesn't sound like much of a reward for risking literally EVERYTHING. Yet this happens all the time. Or even all the nonbelievers out there that donate organs to strangers they have never met or ever will meet. About the only reward they get from voluntarily having a risky invasive surgery is that they feel good about themselves. That too doesn't seem like much of a reward considering the risk. Neither really makes sense if our nature is 100% selfish.

Consider this, just like love requires genuine choice does sin not also require the ability of choice to be sin? We call sin a transgression. What is the definition of transgress?

Transgress: to go beyond a boundary or limit

I think it's fair to say that sin is going beyond the boundary of what God's will for us is. So for us to commit the act of going beyond the boundary, we have to be capable of being within the boundary of God's will for us also. We must have the ability to choose not to sin in order for us to actually have the ability to sin. If we are incapable of making this decision then we are in fact not sinning, but being controlled by another entity that is sinning through us.

How can this be otherwise? Is sin not an action that requires the power of choice just like love? If my nature is such that I have no power to choose both to sin or not to sin and to choose both to love God or not Love God then my nature makes me incapable of both sin and love. Either I make the decision to do these things or someone else does.

Calvinist I have spoken with before act as though we still have the power of choice in our depraved states and in our saved states, but that the strength of our desire in both of these states is so strong that we won't ever choose against them. I hate to say it, but if anything is 100% then there isn't a real choice. Humans by their nature have an extremely strong sense of self-preservation. We don't want to die and will do everything in our power to prevent it. However, some of us have been pushed and influenced to take our own lives.

If there is even the slightest possibility of something happening, then it will happen. Someone will find themselves in circumstances that make them choose against even the strongest of natural desires.

So let me ask you, can the ones that are not chosen ever choose to love God and can the ones that are chosen ever choose to not love God? If the answer to both is no, then guess what? We lack the ability to choose to sin or to choose to love God and therefore cannot sin or love God in any meaningful way.

 

[kyredneck]

Show me a dead man that has a choice

Exactly, that's what the free willers miss, only the quickened truly have choices.

 

[tyndale1946]

Exactly, that's what the free willers miss, only the quickened truly have choices.

Right again Kentucky... Brother Glen

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[Dave G]

So here's the deal, we can lob different verses at each other that support our viewpoint. You can list verses allegedly showing that God chooses people and that we can't choose for ourselves and I can in return list off a bunch of verses that claim that God wants everyone to be saved and that we must choose to be saved. This is why this debate keeps going on and on.

So let's try to look at this logically since God was kind enough to bless us with the gifts of reason and logic.

Brad,
Long ago I made the decision to trust God ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ) and not my own understanding.
With respect, I have no reason to look at any of your explanation "logically", because I've already done this with several on this forum, and I disagreed with them, as well.

So, I'll limit my reply to what you've stated in your opening sentences.


1) We can both post verses that support our positions.
Whether or not they are in context or out of, is for the readers to decide.

2) I can list verses that, taken at face value, do show that God chooses someone and that man has already made His choice with regard to God and His ways
For some reason those don't seem to make a dent in your view, nor are they likely to persuade you any more than they already have.

3) You can list one verse that appears to show that God loves everyone ( John 3:16 ), one verse that appears to show that God wants everyone to be saved ( 1 Timothy 2:4 ), and one verse ( perhaps 3 ) that appears to show that Jesus died for everyone ( 1 John 2:2 ). As far as I am aware, there is only one passage that even remotely appears to show that man must choose to be saved...Acts of the Apostles 16:29-31, the rest are written to those who have already believed ( Romans 10 ).

The reason why the "debate" keeps going on is because some people read Scripture and certain passages stand out for them, while others make no sense.
I read Scripture and everything flows together, but to reinforce my understanding of it to them, I quote the pieces that are relevant to the discussion...which they apparently see as not making sense within the framework of verses they understand from God's word.

In other words, as I see it, anything outside this framework of verses they understand, doesn't relate... because it is outside the understood framework of the verses they do seem to grasp.

Here is the framework of verses I see their "gospel" consisting of:

John 3:16
John 14:6
Any passage showing "eternal security", if that is what they have been taught and believe in.
Any passage showing loss of salvation, if that is what they have been taught and believe in.
Any passage that appears to show a man's will determining something, or God's will not being accomplished among men.
Any passage that makes appeal to man's will, especially Old Testament passages where the Lord is commanding Israel to repent and return to Him and His ways.
The "Roman's Road", which includes Romans 3:23, Romans 4:5, Romans 4:25, Romans 5:1, Romans 5:8, Romans 5:12, Romans 6:23, Romans 10:9-10, Romans 10:17.
Any passage that appears to show that Jesus died for all men, of which there are 5 that I know of that even come close.
2 Peter 3:9
Revelation 3:20.
1 Timothy 2:4-6

Add to that about 30 others, and that is the entirety of the Gospel and Bible teaching in most visible churches, from my perspective.

 

[Dave G]

In the Baptist churches I have been a member of, or been in attendance with over the years, the following passages have never been mentioned, even in passing:

No part of John 6 is ever preached from.
John 10:26 doesn't exist, to them.
No part of John 17 is ever alluded to.
No part of Romans 8, outside of Romans 8:28 and Romans 8:35, is ever spoken of.
No part of Romans 9 is ever spoken of.
No part of Romans 11 is ever referred to.
No part of Ephesians 1 is ever touched on, except for Ephesians 1:13-14.
Ephesians 2:8-9 is often spoken of, but none of the other verses, especially verse 10.
No part of 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 is ever dealt with.
None of 2 Corinthians 4 is ever preached from.
Barely anything of the book of Hebrews is ever spoken of, except to reinforce Christ dying for all men ( Hebrews 2:9, taken out of context ) or to support church attendance ( Hebrews 10:25 ), except in places that teach loss of salvation.
Psalms 65:4 is never quoted.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, not in their Bibles.

In fact, most of the Bible is largely ignored in favor of the same 100-200 sermons recycled over and over and over, which deal with about 1-2% of all revealed Scripture ( an easy figure to establish...1-2% of 31,101 verses is roughly between 300 and 600 verses ).
I've also never been in a visible church that has ever read an entire chapter of the Scriptures together in one sitting...some here have, but I have not.


Reason and logic?

Tell me the reason why some people who claim to be saved are so very narrow in their treatment of Scripture, but insist on making the claim that they teach the entire counsel of God...when they do not.

What is the logic behind ignoring large parts of Scripture and concentrating only on that which is relevant to them, year after year after year?

Why do most, if not all "non-Calvinists", avoid the passages that deal with election, predestination, calling and so forth, unless they are specifically asked to deal with them, and then they never re-visit them unless the "problem" crops up in their congregations again?

Even worse, why is it that most "non-Calvinists" cannot tell anyone what the passages that trouble them actually mean ( and if they do, they don't match the actual words on the page ), but they can tell people what they don't mean?


I think those are valid questions, don't you?

 

[Dave G]

Brad, this will be my final reply to you in this thread:

So for us to commit the act of going beyond the boundary, we have to be capable of being within the boundary of God's will for us also.

Where does God's word say that any man is capable of being without sin?
I know of only one man who was, and He wasn't just a man.
But I can tell you where Scripture says that all men ( outside of Christ the man, who is God incarnate ) are sinners and none are capable of doing anything but evil:

Romans 1:28-32.
Romans 3:10-18.
John 3:19-20
Jeremiah 13:23.
Proverbs. <---- "Fools" are those who are outside of Christ, and have not had their sinful natures changed by the miraculous power of God's Holy Spirit. They never learn righteousness, and correction never "sticks".
Psalms. <------ Same here. The term "wicked" is used to designate those who are not justified by God ( Romans 8:33 ) and have Christ's imputed righteousness. The term "righteous" is used to denote those whose sins have been put away by God, in His grace. No man is inherently righteous, nor capable of doing righteousness...because the righteousness that God's children do is wrought ( worked ) in and by God ( John 3:21, Philippians 2:13 ).

Outside of that forgiveness that was purchased by Christ's blood, there is no forgiveness of sins, but only eternal death and punishment.

We must have the ability to choose not to sin in order for us to actually have the ability to sin.

No man is without sin:

Romans 3:4
Romans 3:9-12
Romans 3:23
Ecclesiastes 7:20
Psalms 14:1-3
Psalms 51:5
Psalms 53:1-3
Job 15:14
Job 25:4
Psalms 130:3

.....many more.

My question for you is, since all men sin, then where are the ones who have the ability to choose not to sin?
Similar to those who hold to Darwinian evolution, where are the "missing links"?
If mankind could choose not to sin, then there would be some that the Lord says are not sinners.
But God's word states that the only ones God considers not to be sinners, are those who are saved by His grace and cleansed by the precious blood of His Son.
The reason men need a Saviour, is because we are not capable of choosing not to sin, and actually carrying that wish out.

Romans 3:10-18 covers this in-depth.

If we are incapable of making this decision then we are in fact not sinning, but being controlled by another entity that is sinning through us.

Inability / unwillingness does not make God the author of sin ( James 1:13-15 )
Man is responsible before God ( 2 Corinthians 5:10, Hebrews 9:27 ) and we will be judged ( Romans 2:6 ).

I encourage you to read and believe the words on the page, instead of rationalizing what you think should be the correct answer.
God isn't messing around with sin...He casts people into Hell every day for them.
His word tells us some very sobering truths, such as the fact that not a one of us is an "innocent babe in the woods".
Assigning God the blame for our sins, and the fact that we love them and will not repent, is insulting to Him.

Perhaps you should re-evaluate your statements?
God's word has continued to cause me to do that very thing, and I know that he's not done with me yet.

So let me ask you, can the ones that are not chosen ever choose to love God and can the ones that are chosen ever choose to not love God? If the answer to both is no, then guess what? We lack the ability to choose to sin or to choose to love God and therefore cannot sin or love God in any meaningful way.

The door only swings one way with mankind...we choose to sin every day, and love it.
Because of this on-going choice, we lack the desire to choose anything that goes against this, unless God does a miraculous work in our hearts.

Reason, "logic" and what seems to be right ( Proverbs 14:12, Proverbs 16:25 ) fill Hell up with those who hold to them every day.
Wouldn't it be safer for you to trust the Lord ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ), Who is the perfect Judge of our corrupt hearts and minds, than to trust something that God Himself says is untrustworthy ( Psalms 118:8, Psalms 146:3, Jeremiah 17:9 )?

If you've believed on Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, then believe His words, not your own reasoning.




May God bless you in abundance, sir.

 

[Benjamin]

So let's try to look at this logically since God was kind enough to bless us with the gifts of reason and logic.

Using logic is rarely of any value with people such as those who would make prophetic claims like that they’ve come to the knowledge of Calvinistic/Deterministic Systematic Theology entirely through their reading of the scriptures without having ever heard of such a system. Although, logic can demonstrate such is untrue and expose their motives for making such claims. Nor can logic keep up with bringing out the truth in the many words of those who carry on in debates claiming special insightful prophetic understanding of a multitude of common systematic scriptural proof texts which under this delusion of superior insight they pretend to put on a show using unsupported scriptural interpretations which they believe to support their long winded …cosmic consciousness prophetic teachings and reasoning. What logic does do is reveal the fallacious nature of such forms of “debate” as a waste of time to respond to if the goal is draw out the truth in a philosophical argument.

 

[Dave G]

Using logic is rarely of any value with people such as those who would make prophetic claims like that they’ve come to the knowledge of Calvinistic/Deterministic Systematic Theology entirely through their reading of the scriptures without having ever heard of such a system.

It's not prophetic, it's the truth.
You may call me a liar if you wish, that is your prerogative.

Many men have seen it down through history by reading God's word alone, and none of them were ever influenced by Augustine or John Calvin.
William Tyndale was such a man, as was George Mueller, Rolf Barnard, and a list that I daresay would take up a fair amount of this page.

Although, logic can demonstrate such is untrue and expose their motives for making such claims.

My motive is to glorify God, to declare the truth of Scripture, and to demonstrate that only God can give that which men seek...the knowledge and understanding of His word.
You claim to be saved and to believe on His Son, therefore you should be able to claim that God is your Teacher ( 1 John 2:27 ), and that you can understand His words for yourself.

I fail to see what seems so outlandish, unless you're not really a believer.
The proof is in the pudding...do you "hear" God's words ( John 8:47 )?

If so, then praise God for saving you and giving you the knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God.
Because they are not given to everyone.

Salvation is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), and and one that few find themselves the recipients of ( Matthew 7:14 ).

Nor can logic keep up with bringing out the truth in the many words of those who carry on in debates claiming special insightful prophetic understanding of a multitude of common systematic scriptural proof texts which under this delusion of superior insight they pretend to put on a show using unsupported scriptural interpretations which they believe to support their long winded …cosmic consciousness prophetic teachings and reasoning.

Logic is irrelevant.
Proof texting is done on both sides.
"Special insightful revelation" of His word is what God does for His children ( Matthew 11:25-27, 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, 1 John 2:20-27 ).
Are you claiming to be His child?

If so, then you have the very same privilege to study His words and to understand them for yourself that I do.

What logic does do is reveal the fallacious nature of such forms of “debate” as a waste of time to respond to if the goal is draw out the truth in a philosophical argument.

Vain "philosophy" has nothing to do with it.
To me, your dependence on faulty human logic tells me that you don't depend on the word of God to the exclusion of man-made reasoning and logic.
As I see it, you're not casting your understanding on His word, but casting His word upon your own understanding.

I only wish I was wrong in my observations, sir, and my hope is that I am.
Not one of Christ's sheep depends upon their own understanding, but trusts the Lord and His words explicitly ( Psalms 119:11, Proverbs 3:5-6, John 10:27 )
This is my last reply to you in this thread as well.


May God, in His grace, bless you and yours in many ways.

 

[calledbyHisgrace]

Brad,

You said:
"If my nature is such that I have no power to choose both to sin or not to sin and to choose both to love God or not Love God then my nature makes me incapable of both sin and love."

According to your "logic" here, we will be incapable of loving God when we reach Heaven.

The truth is that, with a perfected nature and the moral inability to sin, we will display the purest and truest form of love.

You also pointed out that unbelievers sometimes commit acts of sacrificial love. This is a valid point, but there is an important distinction to be made. Consider this verse that I pointed out earlier:

"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own" John 15:19

It's true that there is a sense in which the world can love, but it's a love for their own. The more that a person feels they have in common with another person, the stronger this "love of own" is. This type of love, as sacrificial and honorable as it sometimes is, is an extension of self love.

The kind of love that God recognizes though, is the love that we display as an extension of love to God.

 

[calledbyHisgrace]

"The kind of love that God recognizes though, is the love that we display as an extension of love to God."

...I thought that I better add some scripture to back this claim up:

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not." Matthew 25:34-43

As you pointed out, some of these people on the "left hand" do commit acts of "love". Why doesn't God acknowledge the fact that some of them have fed and clothed the poor?

"For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward." Mark 9:41

There's the answer. Unless you're keeping the first and great commandment ("Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind"), keeping the second commandment ("love thy neighbour as thyself") won't be acknowledged by God: "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin".

 

[MB]

Calvinist seem to believe they are nothing but puppets on a string. Some go so far as to say God controls everything even our own sin. Blaming there sin on God. There simply is no such thing as Love with out choice to do so. Love like hate is something you have to choose to do.
MB