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Why free choice is neccessary
- Thread starter Brad12d3
- Start date
Thank you Brother Martin for that... God does not cause a man to sin and if I implied that, that was not my intent but it is the creator and not the creature that pulls the strings... If not we would all be headed to hell... Brother Glen
Hi Martin;
This is a beautiful Psalm i reread the whole of it and this one verse stood out.
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
God does lead me and He knows everything detail of myself and yours yet this still does not mean He places sinful thoughts in me nor does this Psalm say God controls every aspect of our lives. I have no doubt that If it's God's will to do so men would never sin. All men would be righteous. God doesn't make mistakes men do.. God does lead yet we still have to follow
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
This proves men can resit God
MB
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Now would someone show me free choice in any of these scriptures?... Brother Glen
. Show me a dead man that has a choice?... Brother Glen
Sure, the church at Sardis Revelation Ch 3
You're are correct, we were incapable of chosing him and that is why he chose us first... Brother Glen
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
Then tell me how God uses the will that condemns man to save him, since you say we have free choice?... I believe in the bondage of the will, not the freedom of it.
The gospel presentation frees the will for in it we find the power of God unto salvation.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
This is not correct. The Gospel presentation does not free the will, the Spirit does.
Goodness, no explanation of your surley accusation just a plain old trollish post. Not really sure you are capable of much more than that.
sigh......For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation....For in it therighteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith........So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Why don't you quote the rest of the passage? You just proved my point about taking things out of context. You see in the following verses that they heard but did not follow.
If you read the passage it is talking about people who are already saved. It is not talking about the dead unsaved which is what we were talking about. That's not trollish of me to say you took it out of context, if that was not plainly evident for you I'm not sure what to say.
Agreed.
No indeed. James 1:13-14.
I think you'll find it does. But if you need some other Biblical evidence, try Job 23:13; Psalms 33:11; Proverbs 21:30; Isaiah 14:27 and loads of others.
No doubt God could have made us all Stepford wives had He so desired, but it is clear that He didn't.
Amen!
Just so, but when God puts forth His power, we follow (Psalms 110::3).
Look, M.B., God's ways are inscrutable (Romans 11:33-36). I can't tell exactly how He does this or that. But I know that God is absolutely sovereign (Psalms 115:3). He is bringing this world to exactly the end that He desires. have a read through Isaiah 40.
Amen! In fact, men always resist God unless He overrules (Acts of the Apostles 7:51; Genesis 50:20).
There are three verses there, and because it references some who refused to believe does not change the fact that it says:
1. Romans 10:17 "faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ" no amount of rejection of the gospel from any amount of people will change the fact that faith comes from hearing the gospel.
2. Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation..." again, no amount of rejection of the gospel from any amount of people changes the fact that the gospel is the power that brings salvation.
3. Romans 1:17 "For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith..." this verse lines up perfectly with the other two that shows where faith comes from which is the gospel.
The gospel does not need an extra measure of grace to add to it to be understood or believed. It is enough grace in and of itself.
I am unsure which post you are referring to here, it sounds like you referring to my posting Rev 3. If so your explanation is correct they are not dead unsaved but never the less He calls them dead. Same as the prodigal sons father did. The problem is not with my understanding of the context of these verse but with the calvie definition of dead. It does not line up with scripture.
No, it is not trollish for you to say I took it our of context, but you have minimized your post to a dishonest level. You did not merely say I took it our of context, it was the way you said it. You immature cagey cals just do not seem to have a filter and you don't even know it.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Context means things. The whole of Scripture means things. You take this verse out of context and turn it to mean something it does not.
Yes, I was referring to Rev. 3. And dead has different meanings. Context matters.
Absolutely not. There are different meanings of dead. You are trying to mash them all into one definition.
Oh I have a filter. I was very intentional about what I said. It wasn't immature, it was the truth. Using Scripture out of context is rampant here.
This is not an answer to what I posted. Sophomoric at best.
Still no explanation only an accusation
Nope no explanation yet.
Good thing you have come along recently to straighten us all out. Oh the arrogance. Further more you have rejected scripture and what it plainly says as well as continued your trollish behavior.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
The explanation is in the verses, you even acknowledged it but then still singled out the one verse for your meaning. There is nothing else to respond to.
Good grief. No I already gave the explanation in another post. They are showing a dead faith, not a spiritual death. Dead does not mean the same thing in every context. Do you not agree?
What did I reject other than you taking verses out of context? All you are resorting to is ad hominem and name-calling. And I am the arrogant one? No sir. You are proving my point.
calledbyHisgrace
Member
Men ought to believe the gospel in and of itself, but without "an extra measure of grace" no one does.
"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God... For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty" (1 Corinthians 1:23-24, 26-27)
The gospel is the power of God only to those who are called.
Not everyone is called.
God has chosen who He will call, and it's not based on anything that we did.
Well Martin you seem convinced of your position and I'm convinced of mine neither of us are willing to believe the others doctrine.
I know you knew that I would disagree with the sovereignty. God is all powerful able to do what ever He pleases He could wipe us all out and start over if He wished to. I don't deny that. What I do deny is that only some were chosen. And that no one has a choice because scripture doesn't say that. I know you've most likely read all the support I can provide. and I've read all of yours. I'll pray that some day we will both understand each other
I have never seen.God over ruling someone's resistance to be saved. This below is what I confessed
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Amen
MB
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Scripture teaches the sufficiency of the gospel to save.
The context of this passage is a comparison of the wisdom of the world to the gospel. The wisdom of the world cannot save but those who are saved understand the very thing, the gospel, that leads us to salvation.
Scripture never says this.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
If everyone was chosen why do not all get saved? That makes no sense.
Every person who is saved is an example of God overruling their desire and slavery to sin.
Yes, but what is the Gospel? The preaching of the Gospel is not sufficient to save. Part of the Gospel is God drawing (literally dragging in the Greek) the sinner.
Of course it does. Read the book of John. It clearly says nobody turns to Christ without the drawing of the Father.