Why I am not a Calvinist.. the ACTUAL topic of this thread

[BobRyan]

The commentators, Jamieson, Faussett and Brown, were "Reformed" in their theology, and this is what they write on the first text:

"Also for the sins of the whole world. Christ's advocacy is limited to believers (1Jn_2:1; 1Jn_1:7): His propitiation extends as widely as sin: note, 2Pe_2:1, "the whole world" cannot be restricted to the believing portion (cf. 1Jn_4:14 and 1Jn_5:19). 'Thou, too, art part of the world: thine heart cannot think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me' (Luther)"

Then we also have the Greek scholar, Dr A T Robertson:

"For the whole world (peri holou tou kosmou). It is possible to supply the ellipsis here of tôn hamartiôn (the sins of) as we have it in Heb 7:27, but a simpler way is just to regard "the whole world" as a mass of sin (1Jo 5:19). At any rate, the propitiation by Christ provides for salvation for all (Heb 2:9) if they will only be reconciled with God (2Co 5:19-21). "

Interesting that you make the Arminian case to be so obvious and blatant as we find it in the text.. that even Calvinist scholars are forced to admit to the irrefutable details.

That level of objectivity not easy to find among Calvinists whose primary solution of choice is to demean or belittle the one posting an opposing view.

 

[James Donovan]

Why not be Calvinist?

One good reason is the following "Calvinism does not survive the test of scripture."
================================================


John 1:11 “He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him NOT”


"God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.

"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.

God knew Judas would fail - and yet he washed his feet.

God knew His own would reject Him - and yet He came to them and yet he weeps over them in places like Matt 23. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. how I wanted to save your children...but YOU would not"


Matt 23
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Hosea 11
:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.

Ezek 18
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

The late RC Sproul said you hold all 5 points or none. Ok. None

 

[BobRyan]

Does He change our nature so we can respond?

Some would argue "yes" -- because God does not have the power to enable choice for the lost - without first causing them to be born-again saints.

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

[James Donovan]

RC Sproul said a Calvinist hold all 5 points or none. Ok. None. What frightens me is the acceptance by young men. I think young men like a system, set up and ready to go. Calvinism is that system. It requires understanding of the system but not the Scriptures

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I think it to be funny, and a wee bit sad, that you have chosen to respond as you have. You engaged with nothing of what I wrote concerning the Greek. Your resorting to quoting people was not at all surprising, and yet it is still the fallacy of moving the goalposts. If you want to have a serious discussion about the Greek in 1 John 2 and 5, that's one thing. That you didn't respond to what I wrote by engaging in a discussion of the merits or lack thereof of my arguments, suggests that you have no real facility with the language, choosing rather to let others (even "great" others) argue your points for you. The problem here is that you have no possible way to adjudicate what a Luther, Marshall, or Robertson says. You simply have to accept it at face value without any evaluation due to lack of facility.

What is more, you say asinine things like, "You quote from IHM, who was a Calvinist, which means that he has a certain slant on what he says" (by which you seem to be saying, "Use an arminian to refute arminianism.") and, "Without any theological bias involved, this is the ONLY way these two texts can be read" (by which you seem to be saying, "I have no theological biases myself.").

You have yet to prove your assertion(s), while demanding others to prove "you" or, rather, those whom you quote wrong. This is still the logical fallacy of reversing the burden of proof. You're begging the question (another fallacy) by assuming your reading is right without proving it to be so. Sure, you quote people, but, it would seem, you cannot--for the life of you--express why they are right as they reference the Greek.

I had hoped to have a good and profitable discussion about the Greek text, but it seems you are unable. Besides that, your ability to discuss things in a logically consistent manor and your demeanor leaves much to be desired, and as such, it is not worth my time.

The Archangel

I have not responded to your Greek, because it does NOT make any difference in what I am saying, nor does it change the fact, in context, both passages in 1 John "the whole world" can only refer to the "entire human race" outside of Jesus Christ. The OUR and WE refer to ALL believers, which means that the WHOLE of mankind is included. We can both find quotes from "scholars", like you did with IHM, and myself with JFB and ATR, to support what we believe. The fact of the matter is clear, that the Bible teaches that it is God's desire to save the entire human race, and has made provision for this in the Death/Atonement of Jesus Christ, conditioned on the sinners REPENTING and BELIEVING, as Jesus Himself says in Mark 1:15, and elsewhere. It is "Reformed" theology that has changed the terms of how a sinner is saved. BTW, there is no point in bring childish in questioning my knowledge of Greek.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Interesting that you make the Arminian case to be so obvious and blatant as we find it in the text.. that even Calvinist scholars are forced to admit to the irrefutable details.

That level of objectivity not easy to find among Calvinists whose primary solution of choice is to demean or belittle the one posting an opposing view.

I agree. It is really sad that they try to question whether you know Greek or can use the English language, etc, because they cannot deal honestly with what the Bible says, but must push their own theology!

 

[BobRyan]

The late RC Sproul said you hold all 5 points or none. Ok. None

As an Arminian I find myself to also be a 2 point Calvinist.

1. Total depravity (all have a sinful nature, and need God to "Draw all mankind" to Himself - John 12:32 - supernaturally which is what He does. That "drawing of all mankind" enables the free will choice "for all mankind" that depravity would have disabled without it)

2. Perseverance of the saints - only those who persevere firm to the end -- will be saved in the end

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

But in Calvinism the "context" is "the need Calvinism has" in the case where it finds ALL.

Romans 11: "32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."

The first "All" is allowed within Calvinism as the unrestricted "all"
The second one is not.

Calvinists are cunning in the way they deal with the Bible, like the way the KJV, with its Calvinistic bias, abused the Greek text at Acts 2:47, to promote their "theology", rather than let the Bible say exactly what it does. then sadly there are some on here, who think they know it all, who will still defend the KJV on this verse, even though the Greek is against it!

 

[The Archangel]

I have not responded to your Greek, because it does NOT make any difference in what I am saying, nor does it change the fact, in context, both passages in 1 John "the whole world" can only refer to the "entire human race" outside of Jesus Christ.

You are, again, making the claim... and assuming it without proving it. Quoting your "scholars" doesn't say why it has to be as you say.

The OUR and WE refer to ALL believers, which means that the WHOLE of mankind is included. We can both find quotes from "scholars", like you did with IHM, and myself with JFB and ATR, to support what we believe.

You've already demonstrated that you won't accept a scholar who does not agree with your theology. And, at the same time, you disallow your opponents to quote scholars who agree with theirs.

The fact of the matter is clear, that the Bible teaches that it is God's desire to save the entire human race, and has made provision for this in the Death/Atonement of Jesus Christ, conditioned on the sinners REPENTING and BELIEVING, as Jesus Himself says in Mark 1:15, and elsewhere.

This is a different question than the one at hand. Perhaps this is your presupposition which is requiring you to see 1 John 2:2 as "Everyone without exception."

It is "Reformed" theology that has changed the terms of how a sinner is saved.

That's funny. This was preached by Paul, discussed by Augustine, and recovered by the Reformers.

BTW, there is no point in bring childish in questioning my knowledge of Greek.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Calvinists are cunning in the way they deal with the Bible, like the way the KJV, with its Calvinistic bias, abused the Greek text at Acts 2:47, to promote their "theology", rather than let the Bible say exactly what it does. then sadly there are some on here, who think they know it all, who will still defend the KJV on this verse, even though the Greek is against it!

Oh... enlighten us, please.

The Archangel

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

You are, again, making the claim... and assuming it without proving it. Quoting your "scholars" doesn't say why it has to be as you say.



You've already demonstrated that you won't accept a scholar who does not agree with your theology. And, at the same time, you disallow your opponents to quote scholars who agree with theirs.



This is a different question than the one at hand. Perhaps this is your presupposition which is requiring you to see 1 John 2:2 as "Everyone without exception."



That's funny. This was preached by Paul, discussed by Augustine, and recovered by the Reformers.





The Archangel

Here is John Calvin himself on John 3:16, who was not a "Calvinist"!

"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life."

Note what this man, who is claimed by those who call themselves "5 Point Calvinists", says about who the Lord Jesus Christ died to save. Also note the terms, "THE WHOLE WORLD" (as we have been discussing for 1 John), and "ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION", a term that is not Calvinistic in any way.

Also, on Colossians 1:14

"that our sins are not imputed to us. He says that this redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death all the sins of the world have been expiated"

Mark 14:24

"Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race"

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Oh... enlighten us, please.

The Archangel

αἰνοῦντες τὸν θεὸν καὶ ἔχοντες χάριν πρὸς ὅλον τὸν λαόν. ὁ δὲ κύριος προσετίθει τοὺς σωζομένους καθ̕ ἡμέραν ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτό

 

[Revmitchell]

Some would argue "yes" -- because God does not have the power to enable choice for the lost - without first causing them to be born-again saints.

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

I agree their version of God is pretty weak

 

[The Archangel]

αἰνοῦντες τὸν θεὸν καὶ ἔχοντες χάριν πρὸς ὅλον τὸν λαόν. ὁ δὲ κύριος προσετίθει τοὺς σωζομένους καθ̕ ἡμέραν ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτό

Simply quoting the text in Greek (or English) doesn't prove your assertion that there is some bias in this verse. I'm curious to know why you think it is so, what the bias is, and what the Greek says in opposition to the KJV or any other translation.

The Archangel

 

[Yeshua1]

Not what the Lord Jesus taught in John 5:39-40, where He says that the CHOOSE to reject Him, which means they could have CHOOSEN to accept Him. No where in the Bible, apart from Reformed "theology", does it say that a sinner is first "enabled" by the Holy Spirit, and then they can call. This is through His CONVICTING power.

The Father gave all who were to get saved to His Son, and jesus called them and choose them, as they were lost sheep straying away from God until than!

 

[Yeshua1]

Interesting speculation. Not at all what we find in Romans 10:9-11

So Isaiah and Paul were both wrong in this?

 

[Yeshua1]

Constantly "redefining terms so the text will fit Calvinism" is the main method used inside Calvinism to defend it against the Bible.

The only time Arminians lose in that debate is when they let the Calvinists get by with it.

The only reason Arminians win any debate would be due to them first setting up a salvation method contrary to shown in Bible, and then agreeing with that model!

 

[The Archangel]

Here is John Calvin himself on John 3:16, who was not a "Calvinist"!

"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life."

Note what this man, who is claimed by those who call themselves "5 Point Calvinists", says about who the Lord Jesus Christ died to save. Also note the terms, "THE WHOLE WORLD" (as we have been discussing for 1 John), and "ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION", a term that is not Calvinistic in any way.

Also, on Colossians 1:14

"that our sins are not imputed to us. He says that this redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death all the sins of the world have been expiated"

Mark 14:24

"Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race"

You seem to be laboring under a false premise. I, for one, am not sitting in a darkened room, reading The Institutes by candlelight, and praying to Calvin. I have a copy of The Institutes, but I have never read them in any more than an incidental way. I'll look up quotes, etc., but I would rather spend my time reading the Bible than Calvin.

I call myself a "Calvinist" because that label--for better or worse--describes the soteriological position I hold. Before Calvin there was Augustine and before Augustine there was Paul. I spend my time studying the arguments of Paul, since he--and not Calvin or Augustine--was an inspired author. I also study the other books of the Bible, other than Paul, that is.

So, I could give a rip what Calvin thinks on any given passage.

The Archangel

 

[Yeshua1]

You seem to be laboring under a false premise. I, for one, am not sitting in a darkened room, reading The Institutes by candlelight, and praying to Calvin. I have a copy of The Institutes, but I have never read them in any more than an incidental way. I'll look up quotes, etc., but I would rather spend my time reading the Bible than Calvin.

I call myself a "Calvinist" because that label--for better or worse--describes the soteriological position I hold. Before Calvin there was Augustine and before Augustine there was Paul. I spend my time studying the arguments of Paul, since he--and not Calvin or Augustine--was an inspired author. I also study the other books of the Bible, other than Paul, that is.

So, I could give a rip what Calvin thinks on any given passage.

The Archangel

Many Non Calvinist seem to labor under the impression that we all have our bibles having just in them the commentaries of Calvin, and that we all saw him as being inspired also!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Simply quoting the text in Greek (or English) doesn't prove your assertion that there is some bias in this verse. I'm curious to know why you think it is so, what the bias is, and what the Greek says in opposition to the KJV or any other translation.

The Archangel

There I thought you could translate it?

KJV: " Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

Actual Translation: "Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as were being saved"