Why I am not a Calvinist.. the ACTUAL topic of this thread

[Saved-By-Grace]

You seem to be laboring under a false premise. I, for one, am not sitting in a darkened room, reading The Institutes by candlelight, and praying to Calvin. I have a copy of The Institutes, but I have never read them in any more than an incidental way. I'll look up quotes, etc., but I would rather spend my time reading the Bible than Calvin.

I call myself a "Calvinist" because that label--for better or worse--describes the soteriological position I hold. Before Calvin there was Augustine and before Augustine there was Paul. I spend my time studying the arguments of Paul, since he--and not Calvin or Augustine--was an inspired author. I also study the other books of the Bible, other than Paul, that is.

So, I could give a rip what Calvin thinks on any given passage.

The Archangel

Well , Paul did not believe what Augustine did on the atonement, which is clearly heretical. I quoted Calvin because he is honest in his understanding of the three verses I gave, and shows that he never believed or taught the "L" in TULIP. As you say you are a "Calvinist" and have his books, surely you must to some degree follow his teachings?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The only reason Arminians win any debate would be due to them first setting up a salvation method contrary to shown in Bible, and then agreeing with that model!

You have just described what Calvinists do. Interesting, that the Church till Augustine did not believe in any of the 5 points!

 

[Yeshua1]

You have just described what Calvinists do. Interesting, that the Church till Augustine did not believe in any of the 5 points!

Well, the Apostle Paul believed and recorded them down to us in the inspired Epistles!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The Father gave all who were to get saved to His Son, and jesus called them and choose them, as they were lost sheep straying away from God until than!

John 6:70, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” Judas, like the other 11, was also "ἐκλέγω" by Jesus Christ, even though he would later betray the Lord.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Well, the Apostle Paul believed and recorded them down to us in the inspired Epistles!

what? you mean Paul taught the "Ransom Theory" of the Atonement, that in the end, even the devil will be saved? You must have a special edition of Paul's Letters!

 

[Yeshua1]

John 6:70, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” Judas, like the other 11, was also "ἐκλέγω" by Jesus Christ, even though he would later betray the Lord.

Jesus chose Judas to be the one to fulfill the scriptures that of His own would betray him, did not mean Judas ever was meant to get saved!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 7 PM Pacific.

 

[Revmitchell]

Jesus chose Judas to be the one to fulfill the scriptures that of His own would betray him, did not mean Judas ever was meant to get saved!

Still called Judas "chosen"

 

[TCassidy]

There I thought you could translate it?

KJV: " Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

Actual Translation: "Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as were being saved"

This would be funny if it were not so sad. It is obvious that the great Greek expert has no understanding at all of the Greek present, passive, participle.

The very first thing I learned in "bonehead Greek 101" about 50 years ago was the non-temporal nature of Greek participles.

Everybody except Saved-By-Grace seems to be aware of what they mean.

 

[The Archangel]

There I thought you could translate it?

KJV: " Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

Actual Translation: "Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as were being saved"

Of course I can translate it, but that was never the issue, was it. The issue at hand is the claim you made about the KJV supporting Calvinism.

So what is it that is at issue between the translation and the original?

The Archangel


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[Saved-By-Grace]

This would be funny if it were not so sad. It is obvious that the great Greek expert has no understanding at all of the Greek present, passive, participle.

The very first thing I learned in "bonehead Greek 101" about 50 years ago was the non-temporal nature of Greek participles.

Everybody except Saved-By-Grace seems to be aware of what they mean.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

This would be funny if it were not so sad. It is obvious that the great Greek expert has no understanding at all of the Greek present, passive, participle.

The very first thing I learned in "bonehead Greek 101" about 50 years ago was the non-temporal nature of Greek participles.

Everybody except Saved-By-Grace seems to be aware of what they mean.

Charles Ellicott (RV chair, parent version of RSV)

"The Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.—Many of the better MSS. omit the words “to the Church,” and connect “together,” which in the Greek is the first word in Act_3:1, with this verse—The Lord added together . . . The verb “added” is in the tense which, like the adverb “daily,” implies a continually recurring act. “The Lord” is probably used here, as in Act_2:39, in its generic Old Testament sense, rather than as definitely applied to Christ. For “such as should be saved”—a meaning which the present participle passive cannot possibly have—read, those that were in the way of salvation; literally, those that were being saved, as in 1Co_1:18; 2Co_2:15. The verse takes its place among the few passages in which the translators have, perhaps, been influenced by a Calvinistic bias; Heb_10:38, “if any man draw back,” instead of “if he draw back,” being another. It should, however, be stated in fairness that all the versions from Tyndale onward, including the Rhemish, give the same rendering. Wiclif alone gives nearly the true meaning, “them that were made safe.”

 

[The Archangel]

Well , Paul did not believe what Augustine did on the atonement, which is clearly heretical. I quoted Calvin because he is honest in his understanding of the three verses I gave, and shows that he never believed or taught the "L" in TULIP. As you say you are a "Calvinist" and have his books, surely you must to some degree follow his teachings?

Calvin is useful to me only insofar as he points me to the text of scripture.

The Archangel


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[Saved-By-Grace]

Calvin is useful to me only insofar as he points me to the text of scripture.

The Archangel


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when he agrees with you?

 

[The Archangel]

when he agrees with you?

I rarely read him, so.... He is neither inspired nor infallible, so I couldn’t care less if he agrees with me or I him.

The Archangel


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[Saved-By-Grace]

Jesus chose Judas to be the one to fulfill the scriptures that of His own would betray him, did not mean Judas ever was meant to get saved!

We are back to Luke 22 and the Lord's Supper which Judas took part in, and Jesus says to Him and the 11, This is My blood shed for YOU. Can't escape this fact, which even John Gill and Matthew Henry, both Calvinists, admit!

 

[TCassidy]

read, those that were in the way of salvation;

He almost got it right. The present passive participle reads in English as a state of being verb.

"We who are saved" (state of being verb) vice "we who are being saved" (action verb). Non-temporal, remember?

 

[TCassidy]

We are back to Luke 22 and the Lord's Supper which Judas took part in

Nope.

1. Judas went to the Chief priests to betray Jesus for money (Matt. 26:14; Mark 14:10; Luke 23:2-6).

2. The disciples all ate at least the initial part of the Passover Supper (Mark 14:17; Luke 22:14).

3. After the intial part of the Passover Supper was ended, the devil puts it in Judas' heart to betray Jesus; Jesus washes all their feet (John 13:2-11).

4. They were told that they were not all clean, a clear reference to Judas. (John 13:11).

5. All, or a few of them, sat back down at the table to dip sops. (John 13:12, 28).

6. The disciples are then told that one of them would betray Jesus. (John 13:21).

7. They ask, including Judas, "Is it I?" and who it was. (Matt. 26:25; John 13:22-25).

8. They are told that the one that dips his 'sop' with Jesus would be His betrayer. (John 13:26; Mark 14:18-20).

9. Judas is told that he is the one and given the 'sop.' (John 13:27, 30).

10. After being given the sop, Judas IMMEDIATELY goes out from them and goes to the chief priests. (John 13:30).

11. Jesus institutes the Lord's Supper/Christian Communion with the eleven. (Matt. 26:26; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:19-20). Judas is no longer present.

12. Jesus Expounds upon the meaning of His life and the Gospel (John 13:31 to John 18:1).

13. The eleven sing a Hymn (Mark 14:46).

14. The eleven go out to the Mount of Olives and the Garden of Gethsemane (John 18:1; Luke 22:39).

15. Judas takes Jesus' enemies to Him, betraying him with a kiss (Matt. 26:47; Mark 14:43; Luke 22:47, 48; Acts 1:16; John 18:2-5).

16. Judas hangs himself (Matt. 27:3; Acts 1:25).

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Nope.

1. Judas went to the Chief priests to betray Jesus for money (Matt. 26:14; Mark 14:10; Luke 23:2-6).

2. The disciples all ate at least the initial part of the Passover Supper (Mark 14:17; Luke 22:14).

3. After the intial part of the Passover Supper was ended, the devil puts it in Judas' heart to betray Jesus; Jesus washes all their feet (John 13:2-11).

4. They were told that they were not all clean, a clear reference to Judas. (John 13:11).

5. All, or a few of them, sat back down at the table to dip sops. (John 13:12, 28).

6. The disciples are then told that one of them would betray Jesus. (John 13:21).

7. They ask, including Judas, "Is it I?" and who it was. (Matt. 26:25; John 13:22-25).

8. They are told that the one that dips his 'sop' with Jesus would be His betrayer. (John 13:26; Mark 14:18-20).

9. Judas is told that he is the one and given the 'sop.' (John 13:27, 30).

10. After being given the sop, Judas IMMEDIATELY goes out from them and goes to the chief priests. (John 13:30).

11. Jesus institutes the Lord's Supper/Christian Communion with the eleven. (Matt. 26:26; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:19-20). Judas is no longer present.

12. Jesus Expounds upon the meaning of His life and the Gospel (John 13:31 to John 18:1).

13. The eleven sing a Hymn (Mark 14:46).

14. The eleven go out to the Mount of Olives and the Garden of Gethsemane (John 18:1; Luke 22:39).

15. Judas takes Jesus' enemies to Him, betraying him with a kiss (Matt. 26:47; Mark 14:43; Luke 22:47, 48; Acts 1:16; John 18:2-5).

16. Judas hangs himself (Matt. 27:3; Acts 1:25).

A T Robertson

"That betrayeth (tou paradidontos). Present active participle, actually engaged in doing it. The hand of Judas was resting on the table at the moment. It should be noted that Luke narrates the institution of the Lord's Supper before the exposure of Judas as the traitor while Mark and Matthew reverse this order. "

Matthew Henry

"By placing this after the institution of the Lord's supper, though in Matthew and Mark it is placed before it, it seems plain that Judas did receive the Lord's supper, did eat of that bread and drink of that cup; for, after the solemnity was over, Christ said, Behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table

John Gill

"with me on the table; and is an aggravation of his sin, that one that sat with him at his table, ate bread with him, and dipped his morsel in the same dish, should be the betrayer of him, according to the prophecy in Ps 41:9 as well as describes and points at the person that should do this action, even one of his disciples; for which disciples, he had just now said, his body is given, and his blood is shed. The phrase, "with me", is left out in the Syriac and Persic versions. From Luke's account it appears most clearly, that Judas was not only at the passover, but at the Lord's supper, since this was said when both were over."

 

[Jerome]

10. After being given the sop, Judas IMMEDIATELY goes out from them and goes to the chief priests. (John 13:30).

11. Jesus institutes the Lord's Supper/Christian Communion with the eleven. (Matt. 26:26; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:19-20). Judas is no longer present.

Luke 22:19-21
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.