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Why I love the King James

glfredrick

New Member
And to me, they are doing a "work of satan" in casting doubts int o sincere Christians as regarding the validity on modern english versions!

25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?

There seems to be a great dividing line drawn in the sand by KJVO persons. Based on what Christ said, division of this nature -- especially concerning the Word of God -- is likely not of Christ, but rather of His enemy.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
I have been and will remain very outspoken against KJVO, but I have no qualms about making a choice to use the KJV Bible for all the reasons Luke2427 offers. I do myself when the occaision calls for that formal level of langage -- certain wedding and funeral ceremonies, the age of the persons to whom I am sharing, etc.

But to say KJVO is to seriously mistake the entire issue of God's Word and to place great power into the hands of a rare few human beings over our God who is the actual sovereign power in this cosmos.

Did you have time to watch the video I linked in the OP?

It is great!
 

Luke2427

Active Member
far better to have a NASB/NIV/HCSB/KJV/NKJV version as main bible and really study and apply it then to just use the KJV because of faulty scholarship in the KJVO position, and use it it despite being unable to fully understand it!

just curious to how many KJVO read it religiously, but due to its wording not really understand it?

I don't think that it is a consensus among scholars to say that the scholarship of the KJV was faulty.

I freely confess that it lacks the advantages we have today, but the scholarship poured into this translation was excellent.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
I like the King James also - even though it isn't my preferred Bible to read. I was raised on it. I think the "eloquence of speech" element is just matter of opinion and semantics. "Flowery" speech doesn't imply eloquence to me. Shakespearean English doesn't necessarily make it eloquent. It's just flowery and poetical. It's pretty to listen to and some people think this makes the King James Version "formal" and so they make it in their minds more powerful. But the formality just makes it more stoic and solemn - those two adjectives not necessarily implying a superior power of word.

To me, eloquence of speech and the ability to "describe with power", has to do with the substance of the speech and not the Elizabethan nature of the words.

The video in the OP demonstrates that perfectly. LOL!

The excerpt above is certainly more flowery than the Sermon on the Mount from the Living Bible, but not more eloquent and not described with more power. It's still just a wolf trying to blow down a pig's house. LOL!!

Thanks for your comments and thanks for watching the video. It was very funny to me.

I disagree that both the video and the KJV with the expanded vocabularly employed by each did not amount to more eloquence and power.

NEVER have I enjoyed the story of the three little pigs as much!
 

Luke2427

Active Member
glfredrick quoted:





Article disagreeing with the use of the Flesch-Kincaid formula to rate the reading level of the KJV.




Note the 100 most used words in the KJV along with the text stats on a KJV on sale at Amazon. Flesch-Kincaid Index: 10.4 http://www.amazon.com/dp/052116334X/?tag=baptis04-20

Here's a comparison of various Bibles using the Flesch-Kincaid index on the same chapters of each Bible. Plus additional information from various sources. http://www.av1611.org/kjv/kjv_easy.html

From a site making fun of the KJV. Note the cartoon.


Is the King James Bible Harder to Understand Than The Others?
http://www.elijahproject.net/read.html
Scroll down and note the word for word comparisons between the KJV and the NASB

Archaic Words in the NIV http://www.av1611.org/kjv/vanceniv.html

My premise is that our modern education system isn't producing enough literate people. Period. It has far less to do with a "400-year-old dialect" than is has with people being able to read materials being produced in 2012.

Wish I could find a percentage figure of the words in the Bible (any version) that haven't changed, in meaning, in the last 400 years. Note the 100 most used words in the KJV. Teach the children to actually read and comprehend 2012 English and they'll be able to read most of most Bibles without any problems. (Note the word comparisons in the lists in the links provided.)

How many of today's high school graduates can't read and comprehend their senior year textbooks? Thus the question... Can they read and comprehend any Bible on the market today?

I must say that I whole heartedly agree with this.

We are not actually talking about a different language when we refer to the language of the KJV.

We are referring to our OWN language at it's peak.

And I am not for forcing people who don't understand the archaic language to read the KJV. I pray that they will use one of the many very good modern versions we have.

I just think we should agree that the King James was written when our own language was at it's best and that the King James has a beautiful rhythm and eloquence about it that is hard to beat.

It may simply be that I am an old soul (though a young man).

I cannot think of anything I love more than listening to an articulate man endowed with good lungs and a rich booming baritone voice read from a lofty pulpit in an old, grand church the King James Bible.

We don't have to argue that the King James is or is not superior in scholarship to a number of the good modern versions today. I do not argue that.

We don't have to argue that the TR is superior to modern texts. I do NOT believe that.

I think we don't have to argue at all. We, I think, should be able to agree that the language of the Elizabethan period was lovely and poetic and powerfully descriptive and that the translators of the King James sought to and succeeded at giving the world a wonderful, beautiful, powerful version of the Scriptures that can be loved by all Christians and perhaps SHOULD be appreciated by all Christians for what it has meant to Western Christianity for centuries.

I think we should all agree on these things.

I think perhaps in our disdain for the, I think heretical, KJVO doctrine we might be a bit knee jerk in our quickness to discount all good things that the KJV has to its credit.
 
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Oldtimer

New Member
Turn off the TV and other distractions.

Put a CD in a good player and listen to Alexander Scourby read the KJV. Turn up the volume so his voice will fill the room. That's about as close as I can get to what you described, Luke.

I usually read along with him, but sometimes just sit, close my eyes, and listen to the power in the words of the KJV. Something, IMHO, that is somehow lost, when a Bible reads like a newspaper. So far, have listened to the NT and will soon be to Psalms and Proverbs. I'm especially looking forward to hearing Alexander read those.

FWIW, I also think you're right about the "knee-jerk" reaction, especially to the extreme KJVO crowd. I've read some well thought out and presented viewpoints from some who take that position. And, often agree with them. OTOH, I've been disgusted with those who have to resort making vile comments about other versions and/or people who support them.

IMHO, they are destroying what they claim they are trying to support. Same thing on the other side of the issue, BTW.

Picture this:
(Not only for the KJVO controversy, BTW.)

A person climbs on their personal soap box to express their opinion. The person is a professing Christian, a witness to their salvation by Jesus Christ.

Seated in the first row, in front of their soapbox is Jesus Christ, Himself, after He arose, before He assended.

How many would say, in front of Him, the same things they say to others today? Especially when their words are conveyed by a keyboard.
 

glfredrick

New Member
One thing I've been noticing about debates on the KJVO issue is the intentional fallacy that dictates that the KJV is THE standard by which all other translation efforts is judged. Who determined that and by what criteria?

And, if so, then why the updates of an "already perfect" translation?

While a good -- perhaps even great -- translation, it is not the only, not the most accurate, and not even the most understandable.

As far as the language being "our" language, it is not -- not in precise terms. Language changes over time and to select one snapshot out of the lifespan of any given language and then say that THAT moment in time was the culmination of the language is to ignore the facts that language is fluid and that usage changes with context and with time.

If we use the former proposition as the basis for deciding about the veracity of any given language, then we must also take God to task for causing the original NT to be written in Koine Greek instead of Classical Greek. Shame on Him for using the gutteral language of the marketplace -- akin to 21st century American English as compared to 1611 King's Court English -- for He failed to capitalize on the culmination of the Greek.

The entire proposition just does not make because at its heart it is an a priori presupposition in favor of ONE particular cultural expression instead of a general principle that regards usage and culture at any given moment -- and with that, the fact that God intends for His Word to go to ALL the people of the world IN THEIR LANGUAGE AT THEIR TIME.
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
The KJV and the US Constitution

Just thought of something - the KJV is 400 years old. The US Constitution is a bit over 200 years old. We know that there is some archaic language in the KJV, but is there any archaic words in the Constitution.....
 

DaChaser1

New Member
I don't think that it is a consensus among scholars to say that the scholarship of the KJV was faulty.

I freely confess that it lacks the advantages we have today, but the scholarship poured into this translation was excellent.

You misunderstood me!

was referencing as faulty the scholarship used to 'support' that the KJVO is correct!

KJV itself best of its time, just that times hvae changed!
 

Luke2427

Active Member
One thing I've been noticing about debates on the KJVO issue is the intentional fallacy that dictates that the KJV is THE standard by which all other translation efforts is judged. Who determined that and by what criteria?

And, if so, then why the updates of an "already perfect" translation?

Just for the record, and you might already know this, that's NOT what I am saying.

While a good -- perhaps even great -- translation, it is not the only, not the most accurate, and not even the most understandable.

As far as the language being "our" language, it is not -- not in precise terms. Language changes over time and to select one snapshot out of the lifespan of any given language and then say that THAT moment in time was the culmination of the language is to ignore the facts that language is fluid and that usage changes with context and with time.

I agree that language is fluid. I am simply saying something that I think is abundantly clear to all of us- it was most substantial, poetic, and descriptive during the centuries surrounding the writing of the King James.

What have we today that compares to Shakespeare? And the language that followed that era for the next few hundred years- what have we that compares to it today?

Even as late as Spurgeon and his masterful sermons- what have we that compares?

This does not mean by ANY means that this is the only version to use or that it ought to be the primary version of most folks. I do not believe this to be the case at all.

If we use the former proposition as the basis for deciding about the veracity of any given language, then we must also take God to task for causing the original NT to be written in Koine Greek instead of Classical Greek. Shame on Him for using the gutteral language of the marketplace -- akin to 21st century American English as compared to 1611 King's Court English -- for He failed to capitalize on the culmination of the Greek.

We could also take this line of reasoning to say the preferred meeting place for worship ought to be houses and catacombs since that is largely where churches met in the first century.

As the church grew and conquered more and more territory with the Gospel of Christ she was blessed to be able to be more affluent and erudite.

So she built grand Cathedrals and she began to translate the Scripture in more beautiful language.

Israel worshiped in a big tent until she grew more powerful and affluent. Then she worshiped in a temple whose majesty was one of the wonders of the world.

Evolving toward greater beauty is a good thing- so long as we don't lose our ability to connect to the common man.

The King James, in it's day, was able to do this. Because language has, in my opinion, backslid since that day, the King James is less able to do this today. But it is not incompetent to do this.

In formal settings- which I think could certainly include Sunday morning worship- I think the King James is not only still very relevant- but pretty hard to beat.

The problem with making this argument is that there are these KJVO folks who have so tainted any crediting of the King James that those of us who love it for sound reasons find it hard to argue for it.
 
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DaChaser1

New Member
Just for the record, and you might already know this, that's NOT what I am saying.



I agree that language is fluid. I am simply saying something that I think is abundantly clear to all of us- it was most substantial, poetic, and descriptive during the centuries surrounding the writing of the King James.

What have we today that compares to Shakespeare? And the language that followed that era for the next few hundred years- what have we that compares to it today?

Even as late as Spurgeon and his masterful sermons- what have we that compares?

This does not mean by ANY means that this is the only version to use or that it ought to be the primary version of most folks. I do not believe this to be the case at all.



We could also take this line of reasoning to say the preferred meeting place for worship ought to be houses and catacombs since that is largely where churches met in the first century.

As the church grew and conquered more and more territory with the Gospel of Christ she was blessed to be able to be more affluent and erudite.

So she built grand Cathedrals and she began to translate the Scripture in more beautiful language.

Israel worshiped in a big tent until she grew more powerful and affluent. Then she worshiped in a temple whose majesty was one of the wonders of the world.

Evolving toward greater beauty is a good thing- so long as we don't lose our ability to connect to the common man.

The King James, in it's day, was able to do this. Because language has, in my opinion, backslid since that day, the King James is less able to do this today. But it is not incompetent to do this.

In formal settings- which I think could certainly include Sunday morning worship- I think the King James is not only still very relevant- but pretty hard to beat.

The problem with making this argument is that there are these KJVO folks who have so tainted any crediting of the King James that those of us who love it for sound reasons find it hard to argue for it.


problem is that it seems majority of the KJVO hold that those of us not think that means we view the KJV as bad version!

It was the gtreatest english version of all time, but there are modern ones better suited to our times!
 

Luke2427

Active Member
You know that statement makes absolutely no sense, don't you? :laugh:

I get what he's trying to say.

Of all the English versions which have ever been created, the King James is the best but it is not well suited for this modern day.

It would be like me saying, "Of all the kings who ever reigned, Charlemagne was the greatest- but his style would not be best suited for our modern culture. There are other Kings who would reign in this particular age better than the greatest king of all time."
 

DaChaser1

New Member
I get what he's trying to say.

Of all the English versions which have ever been created, the King James is the best but it is not well suited for this modern day.

It would be like me saying, "Of all the kings who ever reigned, Charlemagne was the greatest- but his style would not be best suited for our modern culture. There are other Kings who would reign in this particular age better than the greatest king of all time."

exactly!

best english version as in most important one ever made, yet a product of its times...

IF English had stayed the same in word meanings, would still be the best, but it has not, so modern versions better suited to convey the message of God to us for today!
 

gbaty

New Member
Kjv

I love to use the kjv. I have much more confidence in its scholarship than that of many modern versions. In many ways textual criticism was less liberal the than it is today.

The kjv contains many passages that are today woefully considered to be spurious by liberal scholars, the trinitarianbiblesociety.org is helpful when it come to issues of this nature. The TBS was formed when much liberalism was entering the church such as the denial of the trinity.

I have a 1999 Geneva Bible that has been updated to modern spellings and I find the footnotes very helpful. It has been a lost treasure for some time for most of us. Most of the kjv was based on the Geneva bible. It took a while for the kjv to be accepted but it has certainly stood the test of time. It doesn't take long to understand the language, especially when you hear it read. It is a wonderful book.

http://onedailyhope.blogspot.com
 
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Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I love to use the kjv. I have much more confidence in its scholarship than that of many modern versions. In many ways textual criticism was less liberal the than it is today.

The kjv contains many passages that are today woefully considered to be spurious by liberal scholars, the trinitarianbiblesociety.org is helpful when it come to issues of this nature. The TBS was formed when much liberalism was entering the church such as the denial of the trinity.

Welcome to the BB Gbaty.

You are dead-wrong. Most conservative scholars believe there are numerous additions that were not in the original autographs. Machen and Warfield from the first quarter of the last century to name but a few from yesteryear. They were as conservative as they come.
 

jaigner

Active Member
IF English had stayed the same in word meanings, would still be the best, but it has not, so modern versions better suited to convey the message of God to us for today!

Not only is this a grammatical nightmare, it is completely false. Modern translations use better manuscripts. They are far superior than the KJV.
 
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