Why I'm thankful God convicted about Rock'nRoll

[Archeryaddict]

Originally posted by DHK:
The new pope, Pope Benedict XVI, has previously declared that "rock music is an instrument of the devil." So that should settle this question for all eternity. After all his words are infallible, are they not?

DHK

Sorry but I am not Catholic

what kind of message is the lyrics of the song sending a positive one or a negative one?
all rock music is not "an insturment of the devil"
and IMO very ignorant for some one to think it is
JM.02

 

[DHK]

The Pope may not accept the doctrine of salvation by faith alone,(which most here agree on), but because you disagree with him on your position on music is no excuse to call him ignorant.
DHK

 

[av1611jim]

Wow! 7 pages of this is sin...No!...that is sin. And I thought this was about a young man's conviction about rock music, his deliverance from bondage to it, and God's gracious gift of restoring his hearing and his ultimate ability to enjoy good peaceful music.

I concur with the earlier person who stated that it is no wonder that the man in question never returned to his own thread.

You 4 or 5 guys are a piece of work. Really, you are!

What is the conclusion of the matter? What is the whole duty of man?

To do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humblywith thy God.

Not much justice, mercy nor humility in this thread.

BTW; I will oppose rock music til Jesus comes. I say that out of humility considering myself lest I also might stumble on a different obstacle to glorifying my Saviour. I oppose rock music in all its variations because the roots of that tree are in polluted soil. Hence that tree cannot bear good fruit. It never has, and never will.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[David Michael Harris]

I always questioned young Christian musicians who copied the worlds music, why, the answer is usually, cuz we are reaching out. To me I just think its flirting with the world.

I became a Christian at 20 and I come from the deepest pit of bikes, drugs, music, immorality etc etc the world and everything in it did me nothing but harm and it always will, it is the devils playground, the whole world is under his sway. And if he can, he will take you down with him to his firey lake of eternal unrest.

David

 

[TC]

This music debate has been going on for centuries. Many of our classic beloved hymns of today were once called world imitating trash - just like ccm is today. It will not be settled anytime soon either (if the Lord tarries).

I respect peoples right to listen to what they want to and I expect the same from others. I hope all Christians will approach music they listen to with care and sensitivity to God's leading. I would hope that someone will not simply listen to something because it is found in a "Christian" bookstore, but will use discernment in evaluating whether or not the music is good.

 

[Eric B]

You 4 or 5 guys are a piece of work. Really, you are!

What is the conclusion of the matter? What is the whole duty of man?

To do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humblywith thy God.

Not much justice, mercy nor humility in this thread.

BTW; I will oppose rock music til Jesus comes. I say that out of humility considering myself lest I also might stumble on a different obstacle to glorifying my Saviour. I oppose rock music in all its variations because the roots of that tree are in polluted soil. Hence that tree cannot bear good fruit. It never has, and never will.

The rock critics (your side) are the ones on the offensive here; and the rock defenders on the defensive; and it is the rock side you are accusing of not showing humility, justice or mercy, right? Even though your side has not proven that the style is bad in itself, but you accuse Christians of "sin" just for listening to it (and I'm talking about the style in itself, as uised by Christians; not necessarily the secular performers, whom most will agree are sinful). And it is assumed that only clasical/traditional style is good. And it all goes through an endless cycle of association, then nature, then God just doesn;t like it; then association and round and round it goes to the next argument when the last one doesn't work. Anything but any biblical proof.
Yes, the rock defenders may get a bit cross (but once again, they are put on the defensive); but I think it is the traditional only side that is in need of more humility and mercy.

As I have noted elsewhere; I would much rather have a pope preach his followers to follow Christ and not dead works. Are fundies willing to accept the pope if he agrees with their musical cultural agenda? Perhaps that (and the other "culturally conservative" moral issues)will be the deception Satan uses to bring everyone under the final endtime universal church, and not rock/CCM or multiculturalism.

 

[Dale McNamee]

Dear Eric B.,

Another excellent post,as always!

I really agree with your statement: " As I have noted elsewhere; I would much rather have a pope preach his followers to follow Christ and not dead works. Are fundies willing to accept the pope if he agrees with their musical cultural agenda? Perhaps that (and the other "culturally conservative" moral issues)will be the deception Satan uses to bring everyone under the final endtime universal church, and not rock/CCM or multiculturalism. "

BTW,the apostasy of the Episcopal Church in the US (my former denomination) wasn't caused by contemporary worship music, but by "corrupt shepherds" and "societal elites" who "know better than God",what constitutes Christianity!

Many great traditional hymns were used in the consecration of Vickie Gene Robinson, active and unrepentant homosexual, to be a bishop!

Question: Did the use of Traditional hymns make that consecration acceptable to God ?

Maybe it's time for the fundies to re-read Romans 12:2 - " 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind , that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. " And note that the Scriptures never approved of the "removing of the mind" as practiced!

God gave us the ability to reason, let's use it!

In Christ,

Dale

 

[Mike McK]

I respect anyone's decision to listen to or not listen to whatever they like.

If you don't think rock and roll is a good thing, then you have a moral obligation not to listen to it.

What I have never understood is why, if the anti-rock crowd is so sure that they're right, they feel the need to demonize those of us who like it and don't see a problem with it.

 

[Guitar25]

Eric, nice post. You have said what all of us defending christian rock music have said from the beginning but more to the point then any of us could. I applaude you for your excellent post.

Your Christian Rocking Brother In Christ
Guitar25

 

[av1611jim]

Eric said; "Are fundies willing to accept the pope if he agrees with their musical cultural agenda? Perhaps that (and the other "culturally conservative" moral issues)will be the deception Satan uses to bring everyone under the final endtime universal church, and not rock/CCM or multiculturalism."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sometimes Eric. I can agree with you. Then you say something as inane as this.

It is not the "fundies" who will be swayed by the "good words and fair speeches" of popes and his lackeys.
It will obviously be they who are jumping on the ecumenical band wagon. And CCM is a big part of that. So is the other forms of music which mixes the worlds ways with the church. Namely Southern "Gospel", Rap Gospel, Blues Gospel, ad nauseum.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Dale McNamee]

Hi All!

Regarding what Pope Benedict XVI says about music in worship...I came across his article" Music And Liturgy"at: http://www.adoremus.org/1101musicliturgy.html

From the article:

" Three developments in recent music epitomize the problems that the Church has to face when she is considering liturgical music.

First of all, there is the cultural universalization that the Church has to undertake if she wants to get beyond the boundaries of the European mind. This is the question of what inculturation should look like in the realm of sacred music if, on the one hand, the identity of Christianity is to be preserved and, on the other, its universality is to be expressed in local forms.

Then there are two developments in music itself that have their origins primarily in the West but that for a long time have affected the whole of mankind in the world culture that is being formed. Modern so-called "classical" music has maneuvered itself, with some exceptions, into an elitist ghetto, which only specialists may enter -- and even they do so with what may sometimes be mixed feelings. The music of the masses has broken loose from this and treads a very different path.

On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. "Rock", on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit's sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments. "

If you note the 3rd. paragraph,he sounds like our very own beloved CCM critics!

Also for your edification regarding papal infallibilty: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

In Christ,

Dale

 

[av1611jim]

Dale;
When a man (any man) is right, they are right.
Just because he is right about his assessment, in no way affirms he is right about Christian doctrine.

I suspect that is what you are really trying to do. Equate one with the other because they take a similar stand on your pet hobby horse. No problem. You can admit it. Or deny it, but it is there for all the world to see.

I don't care to go quote for quote with you. Unless your mind has been seared as a hot iron, you know that rock music's roots are in rebellion against authority, and no tree with corrupted roots can produce good fruit.

Jesus said that, not me. A corrupt tree cannot bear good fruit.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Guitar25]

This ain't gonna get better later... I fear.

 

[Eric B]

Sometimes Eric. I can agree with you. Then you say something as inane as this.

It is not the "fundies" who will be swayed by the "good words and fair speeches" of popes and his lackeys.
It will obviously be they who are jumping on the ecumenical band wagon. And CCM is a big part of that. So is the other forms of music which mixes the worlds ways with the church. Namely Southern "Gospel", Rap Gospel, Blues Gospel, ad nauseum.

I was being kind of facetious with that statement. I just found it ironic that a leading rock critic here (who I believe would consider himself a fundie) would speak good words about a pope just because of his stance on music; and not just here, but in other threads on the new pope having otherwise nothing to do with music (that's where I saw the statement first, and it was a shock; like out of nowhere!) That makes it look like there would be some interest in the pope if he preached that forsaken element of culturally conservative doctrine, though I know that would not make up for the rest of his doctrine. Still; it is sort of a compromise, that could lure some conservatives in who might be more willing to overlook the doctrines, and there are some out there like that. CCM is long accused of ecumenicism, but if this pope really pushes what he is saying; they would be alienated, while the more musically conservative would be drawn closer.

When a man (any man) is right, they are right.
Just because he is right about his assessment, in no way affirms he is right about Christian doctrine.

But I don't see what the point is of trumpeting his "rightness" in that area. On the other hand; if he is so wrong about everything else; then perhaps he could be wrong about that as well, and you are accepting some of his error. (I had briefly noted on my page the irony of fundies upholding the classical music/art of the largely Catholic "western culture"!)

Unless your mind has been seared as a hot iron, you know that rock music's roots are in rebellion against authority, and no tree with corrupted roots can produce good fruit.

And the context of that "rebellion" is thae fact that that "authority" was itself corrupt. Now, this may not justify the rebellion; but it does show that none are without sin, all have produced bad fruits, so none can claim a pure culture by association of works.

On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. "Rock", on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit's sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments. "

Some of what he's saying here is true, such as it being about "the masses", and "cultic charater" and the "release" through noise and effects. Still, to assume the Church's often somber style is "Christian worship" or "The Holy Spirit's sober inebriation" is to ignore that style's roots in mystic dualistic gnosticism; and note how well it goes with the candles, incense and saints/Mary worship; transubstatiation, etc. of this church! Once again; by buying into such arguments and calling them truth; even the most RCC-hating fundies are subtly, unknowingly honoring this Church's philosophy.

 

[lilrabbi]

Yowza! This thread kinda took off! I checked back shortly after I posted it but there weren't many (if any) responses.

It was said earlier in this thread: "lilrabbi is either right or wrong about music. If he's wrong, then God did not "convict" him to give up rock music."

I'm convinced that rock music, like pornographic art, is a distortion of the God's intended use of our creativity...

Even if I was off base on that, it still doesn't change the fact that I was musically iliterate because of my steady diet of slightly musical noise. The fact is, whether by God's conviction of the trickery and deceit of fundamentalist preachers, I decided to listen to music that followed God ordained laws (just like the law of gravity and other natural laws). My mind was then trained to understand good music and how it all fit together - because of that, my ability to adapt to my new hearing devices has been positively affected in many ways.

I just did some tests with a doctor and my hearing was so good he couldn't measure me! My ability to hear and understand spoken words when there is 'background noise' being played is almost as good as a naturally hearing person. It was more than twice as good as all the other Cochlear implant patientes he has tested. Is this all because I became un-tone-deaf before I went deaf? NO>but it does have something to do with it. Even more, my ability to listen to music now is vastly better than what it would be if I was musically illiterate.

Right now, it is still difficult to listen to complex music (symphonies, orchestras, chorales etc.), because my mind has a difficult time following the different parts - although is is improving.

Mostly, I just listen to myself singing, or other singular voices (instrumental or human).

Say what you want about the historic christian view of the arts, but the fact remains that God has blessed me with the ability to hear better than most of the thousands of other cochlear implant patients, and much of that is owing to the fact that I got my listening habits in order before He took my hearing.

God is gracious and merciful.

 

[lilrabbi]

Also wanted to note that although I was convicted through the teaching of the BJU folks, I have come to disagree a bit on their approach. Too much making Scripture say what its not really saying.

There's enough Scripture that does speak clearly to the issue that you don't need to come up with all the extra stuff.

I also think that God reveals Himself through more than just Scripture (though Scripture is the clearest). Truth is revealed through the observable laws of nature. I am fine with coming to the conclusion that smoking is sinful, because there is observable harm done to the smoker, and worse, to the innocent bystanders.

Jumping off a bridge is suicide. Why? Not because jumping off a bridge is in and of itself sinful, but the law of gravity comes into play. Its quite obvious.

Crack cocaine is damaging, addictive and controlling. Therefore it is a sinful activity to indulge.

It has been likewise shown that listening to certain kinds of music (not just rock) is damaging, addictive, and controlling.

It amazes me that so many are okay with using general revelation to inform their decisions of what is good and evil...except when it comes to music.

 

[Eric B]

Still; you need to be careful of even these "science" claims. Once again; if you are talking about loud rock; then the effects are undeniable. But you said "It has been likewise shown that listening to certain kinds of music (not just rock) is damaging, addictive, and controlling". This sounds like the argument on rhythms, rather than noise. The argument goes; the beats should be accented on the odd, and heavy even beats and too much syncopation are bad for the heart; have some psychosomatic effect that brings out the base in us, --makes us sexually immoral, violent, etc. But all of this is based on pure generalization, some misconstrued evidence (a popular lab study is cited, with irregular drum beats having negative effect on mice called a "rock beat"; and other stuff like that) and not any hard evidence. Yet this is what is often called "God ordained laws" and appealed to as "the historic christian view of the arts" without a shred of biblical evidence (so then we enter the cycle of trying to prove it through science, and then associations (incl. testimonies, and endless reports of what the ungodly rock stars/fans do) saying "it doesn't have to be in the Bible" yet circle it back to that when those other agruments fail). Rather than BJU and the other fundies giving a good teaching with some bad "approach" or extrabiblical claims added; it is a bad teaching that is wholly extrabiblical with some good points added to give it weight. Once again; when you really examine it; it all ultimately boils down to culture and continents of origin.

If this is not what you are advocating; then I apologize. But still; your hearing loss was caused by excessive decibel levels, and that is really the only proven universal physical bad effect that music can have on people. The rest is psychological or spiritual and varies according to the person, and certain circumstances or associations. (e.g. the words; gimmicks, and other stuff we are discussing in the Beatles thread).

 

[lilrabbi]

your hearing loss was caused by excessive decibel level your hearing loss was caused by excessive decibel levels"

Not at all. I have an autoimmune disease called Cogan's Syndrome where my immune system mistakenly attacks my cochleas (inner ears) and my corneas and scleras (eyes). Had nothing to do with listening to loud music.

The point of all of this is that I didn't understand the language of music at all until I started listening to music that was musical. The point is, I learned the language of music through listening to good music, and because of that my brain is able to adapt much more quickly with my hearing devices now.

"This sounds like the argument on rhythms, rather than noise."

Its an argument against music that doesn't follow any rules of music, and is therefore littlemore than somewhat organized noise.

"The argument goes; the beats should be accented on the odd, and heavy even beats and too much syncopation are bad for the heart; have some psychosomatic effect that brings out the base in us, --makes us sexually immoral, violent, etc. But all of this is based on pure generalization, some misconstrued evidence (a popular lab study is cited, with irregular drum beats having negative effect on mice called a "rock beat"; and other stuff like that) and not any hard evidence"

Have you ever heard of "music therapy"? It is based on the study of music's effect on our body's electro magnetic field, and the effect that then has on our mood. It is measurable actually. It is the basis for Accupuncture, applied kinesiology, and a few other health fields.

It is undeniable that certain kinds of music make you move certain ways. Sometimes it makes ya march, sometimes it makes ya dance, sometimes it makes you wanna slooooowwww dance. And some of that is okay, as long as its in the right setting.

"Rather than BJU and the other fundies giving a good teaching with some bad "approach" or extrabiblical claims added; it is a bad teaching that is wholly extrabiblical with some good points added to give it weight."

It is examining our world through biblical lenses. CS Lewis, RC Sproul, other reformed non-fundy theologians are also in this camp. Its just silly and naive to say that music is totally relative depending on culture. Extremely naive.

And crack cocaine is only bad in america. hmmmm......

Jumping off a bridge on to a busy hiway is only suicide in america. hmmmm....

All it takes is a biblical worldview and examination of some pretty obvious facts about our world to determine which things might be bad for us.

It is only Christians who want to listen to fallen music who claim it is neutral. Even Jimi Hendrix and other rockers understood the power their music had over their listeners. They understood it well. We are so willingly blind.

 

[Gib]

I was pretty much tone deaf because all I listened to was hard rock music (of the "christian" variety),

It was christian rock

Not at all. I have an autoimmune disease called Cogan's Syndrome where my immune system mistakenly attacks my cochleas (inner ears) and my corneas and scleras (eyes). Had nothing to do with listening to loud music.

It wasn't

 

[lilrabbi]

I was tone deaf...that is not deaf. It is where you don't understand music and notes and their relation to each other.

I escaped the tone deafness through listening to good music and working on it pretty hard.

I lost my hearing because of the autoimmune disease 4 or 5 years after I stopped listen to not-so-musical music.