Why I'm thankful God convicted about Rock'nRoll

[Archeryaddict]

right about now would ba a good time to put in some Charley Daniels and play along with my fiddle
you guys have a great discussion

How ya like me now?

 

[Gib]

Well, the jury is still out

 

[Eric B]

The point of all of this is that I didn't understand the language of music at all until I started listening to music that was musical. The point is, I learned the language of music through listening to good music, and because of that my brain is able to adapt much more quickly with my hearing devices now.

Its an argument against music that doesn't follow any rules of music, and is therefore littlemore than somewhat organized noise.

This argument would apply to thrash metal and other hard forms like that (and that stuff will damage your hearing as well). Still; what I am concerned with is that people like to lump all "rock' together into that category, but not all rock is like that. A lot of music in the category of "rock" is musical (more musical actually, than the dry piano banging style old hymns are often played in in many conservative churches!

Have you ever heard of "music therapy"? It is based on the study of music's effect on our body's electro magnetic field, and the effect that then has on our mood. It is measurable actually. It is the basis for Accupuncture, applied kinesiology, and a few other health fields.

Precisely my point. You have to be careful with that stuff, because it is straight out of New Age! (I last winter refused an acupuncture session in some new-agey clinic my (non-Christian) family referred me to. The doctor also did some trick with bottles of herbal pills where I could not lift up my arm when I held the bottle in my hand while he put some pressure on it, claiming this was from "weak energy"! I got out of there quickly, hoping nothing followed me!) It would be the utmost irony for Christians to reject a beat because it was once used in voodoo; citing "touch not the unclean thing", "separate the holy from the profane", etc. but then buy into all this stuff in the very process of building arguments against those beats!

It is undeniable that certain kinds of music make you move certain ways. Sometimes it makes ya march, sometimes it makes ya dance, sometimes it makes you wanna slooooowwww dance. And some of that is okay, as long as its in the right setting.

that's true; but the problem is; a lot of these people assume that dancing is always bad, and marching is always good. Thus, the music is given this almost magical power to make one sin.

It is examining our world through biblical lenses. CS Lewis, RC Sproul, other reformed non-fundy theologians are also in this camp. Its just silly and naive to say that music is totally relative depending on culture. Extremely naive.

And crack cocaine is only bad in america. hmmmm......

Jumping off a bridge on to a busy hiway is only suicide in america. hmmmm....

All it takes is a biblical worldview and examination of some pretty obvious facts about our world to determine which things might be bad for us.

It is only Christians who want to listen to fallen music who claim it is neutral. Even Jimi Hendrix and other rockers understood the power their music had over their listeners. They understood it well. We are so willingly blind.

With my argument, it is not a matter of "neutral". Other CCM fans/defenders use this argument, unfortunately; but I don't. I acknowledge a spirit behind the music (in which the sounds can be involved), and you can see this on the Beatles thread (in which one person usually on my side here disagrees greatly). Hendrix and those others did use the elements of music to sway people into sin. But the problem I am addressing once again, is that the BJU argument tries to generalize this to beat accents and syncopation, and that is just not where the problem lies (unless dancing is always bad, and marching is always good, once again). As I point out on my page "By trying to narrow it all down to such broad categories as beat accents, syncopation and repetition in general, etc. the critics are actually diverting us from the real issues of the spirit behind music, and are the ones truly 'aiding the devil' [as they accuse us] by bringing into the church more confusion (which he thrives off of), and leading to people readily dismissing any type of spiritual discernment in music when they find the critics' arguments to be inaccurate. Once again, they are blurring the true spiritual line just as much as the musical relativist!"

 

[lilrabbi]

"This argument would apply to thrash metal and other hard forms like that."

That's exactly what I listened to. Specifically, bands like the Insyderz, MxPx, Supertones, DC Talk, Audio Adrenaline, and other more 'acidic' groups.

There are varying forms of rock music, some are bad in every context, some can be used in a proper context (romantic jazz used in a married setting for example). March isn't always proper. You have to take context into consideration, because music is a language (though usually a vague one) and not every sentence (expressed idea) is right or proper in every context. And some sentences (expressed ideas) are terrible and destructive in every context.

"Precisely my point. You have to be careful with that stuff, because it is straight out of New Age!"

Not exactly. It is employed by those that have a new age worldview, but western medicine (doctors, hospitals, drugs, etc.) is employed primarily by those with an atheistic worldview. Thems the facts. Ought we to reject it as well? That would be silly. Your reaction is similar to most Christians' reactions, and its not altogether unwarranted, just a little bit reactionary.

You say "new age" - just keep in mind that these ideas have been around longer than the nation of Israel, and that our new medical practices aren't in-line with the philosophy of its founders such as Hippocrates.

Also, there is observable truth to the claims of ayurvedic medicine and chinese traditional medicine, JUST like our current healthcare system. And keep in mind that we can utilize aspects of these systems without accepting or even endorsing the erroneous views of some its practitioners and promoters. Case in point, medical doctors' utter disregard to the intended purposes of organs which God gave us. Appendices and tonsils are taken out and thrown away, and we are even taught that they have no use in our bodies. Hogwash. They are allowed to make such silly (and unscientific) claims because they have no knowledge of the Creator of the human body.

"Thus, the music is given this almost magical power to make one sin."

Marches are powerful. Hitler used that power to motivate the masses of his evil empire.

Rock music is powerful. Jazz music is powerful. Classical music is powerful. They are powerful in different ways, communicating and influencing us. And yes, they do communicate in ways other than through our minds and through our ears. Having been deaf, I can tell you that you feel a lot more than you think you feel. That 'feelings' and emotions are communicated in ways not wholly intellectual. How is this so? They affect our physical being, not through sound necessarily. You don't have to hear the rock beat to feel its affects. I can attest to that. You see, your hearing is such a part of you that you can't (I know I didn't) realize how much communication goes on through other senses.

Honestly, it has only been recently that they have machines that can measure these things. But they're finding out that the basis of accupuncture, accupressure, and so forth is really (and surprisingly) accurate. I'm sure there will be more coming forth from the medical and scientific communities on these things.

You talk about there being more to discerning music than just beat and rhythm and harmony and melody and so forth...that's what I'm saying to. While those things would be some of the biggest issues (as those are, simply, what make music music), there's more, we don't fully understand it.

But really, this whole issue is made much harder than it needs to be. Its pretty clear and obvious that music affects people in certain ways. Those affects are good or bad (either always good or bad, or good in some contexts while bad in others). Crack cocaine is always bad. Alcohol can be used in a good way and in a bad way. Note: I'm not saying every kind of music that has a backbeat is evil in every instance. I also don't believe that using alcohol is evil in every instance (though most!

). Using our heads to discern these things is critical. It is when we are addicted to alcohol that we start to justify its bad uses! Just like mustic. When we are addicted to certain forms, we begin to justify their use beyond what is right (use of romantic music in a youth setting is evil). And even using non musical music (ska, rap, etc.) that does nothing more than influence evil appetites.

What I have in mind is: Good romantical music combines sensuality and love. Bad music removes love and communicates sensuality....and worse, savage sensuality (the worst kinds of rock music). I just think we make things way more complicated than they ought to be.

 

[Eric B]

Not exactly. It is employed by those that have a new age worldview, but western medicine (doctors, hospitals, drugs, etc.) is employed primarily by those with an atheistic worldview. Thems the facts. Ought we to reject it as well? That would be silly. Your reaction is similar to most Christians' reactions, and its not altogether unwarranted, just a little bit reactionary.

You say "new age" - just keep in mind that these ideas have been around longer than the nation of Israel, and that our new medical practices aren't in-line with the philosophy of its founders such as Hippocrates.
Also, there is observable truth to the claims of ayurvedic medicine and chinese traditional medicine, JUST like our current healthcare system. And keep in mind that we can utilize aspects of these systems without accepting or even endorsing the erroneous views of some its practitioners and promoters. Case in point, medical doctors' utter disregard to the intended purposes of organs which God gave us. Appendices and tonsils are taken out and thrown away, and we are even taught that they have no use in our bodies. Hogwash. They are allowed to make such silly (and unscientific) claims because they have no knowledge of the Creator of the human body.

Western medicine does not stem from an atheistic worldview. The one exception could be your example of appendices and tonsils being removed because they no longer have any use. This could be based on evolutionism, which would assume that in our ancestors they did have use; but fell into disuse by natural selection, or mutation; or whatever, when we became "human". But otherwise; our medicine is not tied into atheism as far as I know. The West went into atheism long after it developed its medicine. It may have been heavily discovered by pagan Greeks; but it seems they kept their own religious beliefs more separate from their profession; though some philosophy may enter in passing.
But in the East; it is quite a different story. The religion is more intertwined into everything. (that is one of the religious concepts. Think pantheism). So I could not trust their practices. That doctor as well told me "this is just eastern medicine. You are just used to Western medicine". But after that "energy" trick with the bottles; I am just not convinced that this is not yet another spiritual deception from Satan. It doesn;t matter how old is is, or how much it may "work". This makes it all the more deceptive. (Also, "new age" is just a modern name for basically a rehash of the ancient concepts. People still believed way back then that man could become a god or whatever, and that is what New Age basically is about).

There are varying forms of rock music, some are bad in every context, some can be used in a proper context (romantic jazz used in a married setting for example). March isn't always proper. You have to take context into consideration, because music is a language (though usually a vague one) and not every sentence (expressed idea) is right or proper in every context. And some sentences (expressed ideas) are terrible and destructive in every context.

Marches are powerful. Hitler used that power to motivate the masses of his evil empire.

Rock music is powerful. Jazz music is powerful. Classical music is powerful. They are powerful in different ways, communicating and influencing us. And yes, they do communicate in ways other than through our minds and through our ears. Having been deaf, I can tell you that you feel a lot more than you think you feel. That 'feelings' and emotions are communicated in ways not wholly intellectual. How is this so? They affect our physical being, not through sound necessarily. You don't have to hear the rock beat to feel its affects. I can attest to that. You see, your hearing is such a part of you that you can't (I know I didn't) realize how much communication goes on through other senses.

You talk about there being more to discerning music than just beat and rhythm and harmony and melody and so forth...that's what I'm saying to. While those things would be some of the biggest issues (as those are, simply, what make music music), there's more, we don't fully understand it.

But really, this whole issue is made much harder than it needs to be. Its pretty clear and obvious that music affects people in certain ways. Those affects are good or bad (either always good or bad, or good in some contexts while bad in others). Crack cocaine is always bad. Alcohol can be used in a good way and in a bad way. Note: I'm not saying every kind of music that has a backbeat is evil in every instance. I also don't believe that using alcohol is evil in every instance (though most!). Using our heads to discern these things is critical. It is when we are addicted to alcohol that we start to justify its bad uses! Just like mustic. When we are addicted to certain forms, we begin to justify their use beyond what is right...

What I have in mind is: Good romantical music combines sensuality and love. Bad music removes love and communicates sensuality....and worse, savage sensuality (the worst kinds of rock music).

All of this I would agree with. I once again; do not deny any effects of music. What I was denying was the blaming of them for sin, based on an assumption of dancing always being bad, and marching always good. Sin is in the heart, and it is from there that wrong uses of music arise. But you have acknowledged that the backbeat is not always bad, and marches not always good. If this is what the BJU people are teaching you now; Praise God. The Christian music class I took 7 years ago; with material from the BJU/Majesty Music circle; was still drawing the line according to the backbeat always being bad, (because it "appeals to the heels instead of the head") and even all jazz was spoken negatively about; and marching (or contemplating) assumed to be good, and classical the only style praised/used as an example of the "good". I certainly hope they have changed that. That would leave mostly the KJVO movement as the advocates of the old teachings, and you could expect a loud reaction from them, who already disagree with BJU's more balanced treatment of the translation issue, and see them as soft and modernizing in other areas as well.

(use of romantic music in a youth setting is evil). And even using non musical music (ska, rap, etc.) that does nothing more than influence evil appetites.

"Romantic music" can be a very blurry category; so I'm not sure what to say to that. If you mean what secular radio would call "slow jams"; I don;t think any youth groups would use that anyway. They use lively happy stuff.
Rap is poetry that is set to a beat. It is very message oriented, and thus good for teaching. (Call it "edutainment" if you will! I know some of it today is done in a fast way where the words may not be clear. But it is not necessarily that way). Ska; I am not very familiar with. The first thing that usually comes to mind is the old Cartoon Network promotional showing the Jabberjaw gang as a modern ska group ("Me and my friends get no respect; what does Scooby do that we neglect? We be puttin' all our foes in check; but me and my friends get no respect...") The rhythm does bear some resemblance to thrash; but the heavy metal guitars are more in the background, and the words are very much out in front. The gimmicks from what I see can be bad (basically, the punk style; and Jabberjaw himself has a nose ring!) But I wouldn't say the music was bad, at least from what I have heard. I find the example I gave as catchy and fun; but I guess it could be noisy, and perhaps too energetic to others.

 

[lilrabbi]

"Western medicine does not stem from an atheistic worldview. The one exception could be your example of appendices and tonsils being removed because they no longer have any use. This could be based on evolutionism, which would assume that in our ancestors they did have use; but fell into disuse by natural selection, or mutation; or whatever, when we became "human". But otherwise; our medicine is not tied into atheism as far as I know. The West went into atheism long after it developed its medicine. It may have been heavily discovered by pagan Greeks; but it seems they kept their own religious beliefs more separate from their profession; though some philosophy may enter in passing."

Thank you for proving my point Western medicine, as practiced today, is thoroughly evolutionary and godless (no recognition of an intelligent design in most realms). Should we throw out the baby with the bathwater? No. Western medicine has much to offer, we just need to be aware of the atheistic leanings of the vast majority of those in control of the system. Just like traditional medicine, we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. Just because it has been practiced by many who are taoists or hindus, doesn't mean we have to throw out everything they learned. They were doctors and scientists as well, they just interpreted the facts with their worldview (that of a "mother nature" or "divine energy" and so forth).

Point is, the scientific data can be separated from the ungodly philosophies of the men who did the research.

What I meant by "romantic music" would be romantical songs for slow dances, sensual jazz, and so forth.

Poem put to music is one thing, poems put to one small aspect of music is another. There is no melody or harmony in much of the rap stuff. So yeah, its sorta musical, but not by much.

 

[Guitar25]

Originally posted by lilrabbi:
"This argument would apply to thrash metal and other hard forms like that."

That's exactly what I listened to. Specifically, bands like the Insyderz, MxPx, Supertones, DC Talk, Audio Adrenaline, and other more 'acidic' groups.

lilrabbi, You and others already know I'm on opposite sides of the fence as you so to speak. But that was the funniest thing you've said yet. MxPx, everyone thinks there a Christian Rock band, but there not. But even funnier to me then that is you call O.C.Supertones, DC Talk, Audio A and the other bands you mentioned as Thrash Metal. I've gotta say thats rediculous. Those bands are light rock to just normal at the most. If you want to hear Christian Heavy Metal or close enough to it go listen to Disciple, Skillets newest album, Pillars newest album and some other bands such as Dead Poetic and Day of Fire.

Notice i didn't qualify them as thrash metal cause thrash doesn't have a real order, all of these bands do. Trash Metal doesn't have any real order. Only Christian Rock band that comes to mind fitting this genre is Demon Hunter. Despite what you may say after this all these bands are Christian Rock bands glorifying the name of Christ through music. But enough said about that.

I just want to say that those bands you named were not in any way thrash metal.

Your Brother in Christ
Guitar25

 

[lilrabbi]

Hey guitar,

just wanted to clarify. By the end of my rock music listening journey, I had ventured into groups (so many, and so weird), and I can't remember many of their names.

Skillet is one of the less rocky ones...Mostly what I would buy is "Songs from the Penalty Box", the sampler that used to come out, and I would buy cds of the groups on there. Some freaky weird stuff goin' on there. I was there. But thankfully, like I said, God rescued me from that so I could get past the tone deafness, and be able to enjoy music with my 'new ears'.

 

[lilrabbi]

I can think of some secular groups that I had heard, and liked, and got the 'christian' group that sounded like them:

Ramstein is one. Rob Zombie is another. I never listened to much of their stuff, just heard a snippet on tv or radio or something and had liked what I heard, and found the 'christian' groups that mimicked them.

Ever hear of a christian group or maybe it was their record titled: Bottle Rocket? That was one that I remember...

 

[Eric B]

DC Talk...light rock to just normal at the most.

I remember that DC talk started out as a rap group ("Down with the DC tAlk..."). Then, sometimes in the 90's; they completely changed, and it did sound like hard rock to me. Perhaps that was just one album or something?

 

[Eric B]

Thank you for proving my point Western medicine, as practiced today, is thoroughly evolutionary and godless (no recognition of an intelligent design in most realms). Should we throw out the baby with the bathwater? No. Western medicine has much to offer, we just need to be aware of the atheistic leanings of the vast majority of those in control of the system. Just like traditional medicine, we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. Just because it has been practiced by many who are taoists or hindus, doesn't mean we have to throw out everything they learned. They were doctors and scientists as well, they just interpreted the facts with their worldview (that of a "mother nature" or "divine energy" and so forth). Point is, the scientific data can be separated from the ungodly philosophies of the men who did the research.

But as I said; that was just ONE POINT where it was influenced by evolution. The rest of it goes long before modern evolution and atheism.
I can better separate the true science from the ungodly philosophy/(religion) with the Western concept, because I am more familiar with it. The Eastern stuff I know little about; excep that the religion/philosophy is more ingrained in it. So wouldn't you say it was wise to be very cautious about it? (Should I have just trusted that clinc, and gone through with the acupuncture; especially after that "energy" trick?) I am not trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater; but rather practice discernment (like people are attempting to do with music). I would have to at least find out more about it, to be able to discern what is spiritually bad, and not.

Poem put to music is one thing, poems put to one small aspect of music is another. There is no melody or harmony in much of the rap stuff. So yeah, its sorta musical, but not by much.

You can not say that it is bad or violating scriptures like Eph.5:19 because it has "no melody"; since it is not being used to replace the singing of songs (at least not in any church or youth ministry I know of).

 

[lilrabbi]

Yeah, actually, DC Talk was the very first christian rock group that I ever listened to. That was when I was in grade school. Listened "Heaven Bound" and "Nu Thing" daily Then their fourth album, Jesus Freak totally went from being hip/hop to being what I think would be called "grunge".

Anyway, yeah, better safe than sorry (in your clinic experience). There are some practitioners that include the spirituality. My dad is a massage therapist, and has hired therapists to work for him in the past. He had to fired a lady because she was practicing taoist philosophy with her clients. So, yes, that silliness definitely exists.

I would say that rap music is not very musical. And that it has effects on us that are not positive.

 

[Eric B]

I've never gotten any sense that it was having any bad effect on me. There are just a lot of people in the secular industry using it wrong.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by lilrabbi:
Ever hear of a christian group or maybe it was their record titled: Bottle Rocket? That was one that I remember...

I think you're thinking of Guardian.

There's also a mainstream band called The Bottle Rockets.

That's exactly what I listened to. Specifically, bands like the Insyderz, MxPx, Supertones, DC Talk, Audio Adrenaline, and other more 'acidic' groups.

By "acidic", do you mean acid rock?

You're probably a little young, but acid rock would be bands like Blue Cheer or Jefferson Airplane, not DC Talk.

And Audio Adreneline is not a thrash metal band.


Now Playing: Tab Benoit – “Sea Saint Sessions”

 

[lilrabbi]

Guardian, that's it!

When I said 'acidic', I was simply making reference to that kind of music that is furthest down the spectrum. Simply saying that the other bands, the names of which I couldn't remember, were more towards that side. Such as guardian, and some others that can't remember! lol I know that audio adrenalin isn't thrash.

Again, I can't remember the names of the bands, but their sounds were similar to Rob Zombie, Ramstein, ac/dc and so forth (with their differing sounds).

 

[Mike McK]

bump......

 

[rbell]

kind of raising the dead, aren't you Mike?

 

[Mike McK]

kind of raising the dead, aren't you Mike?

......bored

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

:laugh: Mike. If there's no controversy, let's pull up an old one! Love you man!

 

[tinytim]

What controversy?

YOu mean there is a controversy about music?