Why is it such a big deal?

kyredneck · May 27, 2014

Originally Posted by Winman
...One view makes man preeminent, the other view makes Christ preeminent.....

kyredneck said:
Lol, ain't that the truth:

26 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;
28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are:
29 that no flesh should glory before God.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1 Cor 1

The one view most definitely makes man preeminent, it reeks with the big "I" of the flesh, "I" chose, "I" decided, "I" accepted, "I" received, "I" put myself in Christ Jesus.

The other view gives all the glory to God because it accepts the simple truth, 'of Him are ye in Christ Jesus'.

Winman said:
You are a little mixed up, you are quoting scripture, not the Calvinist view......

....and it's quite amazing at how closely your articulations have correlated the two views with this scripture:

Winman said:
.....If you ask a non-Cal why did God choose you, they will answer "because I believed......." [notice that big "I"?]

If you ask a Calvinist why did God choose you, they will answer, "I don't know, but God chose ME.".....

You're pretty much spot on. One view says "I" chose, the other view says "God" chose. One view glories in the flesh, the other view glories in the Lord.

HUGE difference (as you say).

kyredneck · May 27, 2014

If you ask a Calvinist why did God choose you, they will answer, "I don't know, but God chose ME.".....

....and I corrected the emphasis that you had in the wrong place; the one that has been humbled by the scope and magnitude of what God has done for him will freely admit I DON'T KNOW WHY God would choose such a weak, foolish, base, and despised thing as me.

'I DON'T KNOW' has been a consistent element in praise down through the centuries, it's as Christian as cornbread is American:

"I know not why God’s wondrous grace
To me He hath made known,
Nor why, unworthy, Christ in love
Redeemed me for His own."

"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see."

Winman · May 27, 2014

kyredneck said:
....and I corrected the emphasis that you had in the wrong place; the one that has been humbled by the scope and magnitude of what God has done for him will freely admit I DON'T KNOW WHY God would choose such a weak, foolish, base, and despised thing as me.

'I DON'T KNOW' has been a consistent element in praise down through the centuries, it's as Christian as cornbread is American:

"I know not why God’s wondrous grace
To me He hath made known,
Nor why, unworthy, Christ in love
Redeemed me for His own."

"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see."

You still are not getting it. In Calvinism, God chose YOU.

In non-Cal/Arm God chose JESUS.

Ask a Cal why he is elect, and he will say, I don't know why but God chose ME.

Ask a non-Cal why he is elect and he will say, I am elect because I trusted Jesus was was baptized into his body. Jesus is the ELECT ONE, I am only elect because I am "in Him". I am only elect because I am being carried along on Jesus's coat-tails.

You see, he (Jesus) made us "accepted" (why we are chosen/elect) "in the beloved" (baptized into his body).

I don't expect you to see it, because you don't want to see it. John MacArthur fully knows what Calvinism really teaches, and he tells it like it is. In Calvinism God chose HIM, God chose John MacArthur. God didn't choose John MacArthur "in Christ", he choose John MacArthur first, outside Christ, and then afterward gave him to Jesus. Jesus's job was to die for him, John MacArthur, because God had chosen John MacArthur.

In Calvinism, John MacArthur is more important than Jesus, Jesus is secondary, and his job was to die for John MacArthur.

Send the guy an email and he will tell you that what I wrote is absolutely accurate. You guys don't even understand your own doctrine.

kyredneck · May 27, 2014

Winman said:
You still are not getting it. In Calvinism, God chose YOU.....

YES! And for the life of me I don't know why!

(other than it pleased Him to do so)

Winman · May 27, 2014

kyredneck said:
YES! And for the life of me I don't know why!

(other than it pleased Him to do so)

OK, so you agree with John MacArthur and do not have a problem with it. You do not have a problem with Calvinism making man primary and Jesus secondary.
Well, as long as you know what you are doing.

You have to read MacArthur very careful (this is for those who haven't quite gotten it yet).

John MacArthur said:
Now the verb "he chose us," means to pick for oneself. It's a reflexive verb. And it turns back on the one who chooses. God chose for His own sake. He chose for Himself, very personal. And He chose us, all of us who are saved, He chose, it says very explicitly, note it, before the foundation of the world, before the world ever began. Before the world was ever created which means before any of us were ever born, He had already chosen us. Scripture repeats this tremendous truth of the choice of God as to who would be redeemed before the world was ever made. It repeats it many places...Matthew 25:34, "Come you who are blessed of My Father, said Jesus, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." The Lord designed His kingdom from before the foundation of the world and He designed who would be in it from before the foundation of the world. And you and I are saved and we know the Lord Jesus Christ because God chose us before the world ever began. What an incredible reality. In Luke 12:32 we find again that the Lord says, "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the Kingdom." And again the choice is always with God. Men don't choose God, God chooses men. His is the choice.

John MacArthur said:
In the thirteenth chapter of Acts, a most fascinating statement is found in verse 48. Paul and Barnabas ready to preach, "And when the Gentiles heard this," that is regarding the gospel, and the gospel of salvation, "they began rejoicing and glorifying the Word of the Lord," now note this, "and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." The only people who believe are those who have been appointed to eternal life. God only grants the gift of faith to those who are predestined to salvation. He chose us. And to those He has chosen, He gives the power to believe.

http://www.gty.org/resources/print/sermons/80-46

Most folks would read this and miss some very important points. John MacArthur does not believe we are chosen "in Christ". You cannot be "in Christ" until you believe on Jesus, that is when we are baptized into his body by faith (Gal 3:26-27)

No, John MacArthur believes you were first chosen or elected, for the purpose that God could give you faith. You were chosen OUTSIDE Christ, not "in Him" as the Bible clearly teaches. (Eph 1:4)

Again, no one is "in Christ" until they believe on him, but according to Calvinism, God chose you when you did not have faith and were outside Christ, and AFTERWARD gave you faith so that you could believe on Jesus and be placed in him.

John MacArthur is very clear, the only persons who are given the power to believe are those who were first chosen by God.

A Calvinist is not chosen "in Christ" a Calvinist is chosen OUTSIDE Christ.

This violates what scripture teaches in Ephesians 1:4 that says we were chosen "in him".

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of scripture, Calvinism teaches a man is chosen OUTSIDE Christ. This is the error of Calvinism.

kyredneck · May 27, 2014

Winman said:
You used to use scripture a lot more, check out these posts.

Winman said:
See Willis, you used to say regeneration equals salvation, now you say the opposite.

You are the one who said this Willis, I am not putting words in your mouth.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1947060&postcount=16

So Willis, you say all sorts of things, who knows what you are going to say next?

Get over it Winman, you failed, miserably.

Regardless of all the twisted violence that you do to the scriptures, your vain reasoning against the truths of sovereign grace, your sick obsession to stamp out Calvinism, Willis came to the truth. Period. You failed. Get over it.

Winman · May 27, 2014

kyredneck said:
Get over it Winman, you failed, miserably.

Regardless of all the twisted violence that you do to the scriptures, your vain reasoning against the truths of sovereign grace, your sick obsession to stamp out Calvinism, Willis came to the truth. Period. You failed. Get over it.

Again, Willis has every right to believe whatever he wants. I really do not have a problem with that.

What irks me, and perhaps I should not let it bother me, is that now his answers to questions are what I call "Calvinist cliches".

He will say, "a corpse cannot believe"

OK, in the past he said that a spiritually dead person is not like a corpse and can believe, and he showed scripture like John 5:25 to prove it.

But most of the time now he doesn't quote any scripture to support his new views. Of course, rarely do ANY Calvinists post scripture to support their view, because often THERE IS NONE.

An example is regeneration before faith. In the past Willis argued against it, because he rightly argued from scripture that we are justified by faith, and that it is impossible to be spiritually alive while you are dead in sins. Therefore you must believe before you are regenerated. He quoted John 20:31 to prove faith precedes regeneration or life.

But now he just says regeneration precedes faith. No scripture, just parrots a Calvinist cliche over and over again, like Yeshua1 does constantly.

It should be a rule that you have to post scripture to support your view.

kyredneck · May 27, 2014

Boy, do you actually expend that much time and effort to keep track of all of us Calvinists? If so, you really do have a problem.

kyredneck · May 27, 2014

On the flip side, do you have a success story to share with us? You know, someone on board here that you've succeeded in convincing to leave the truths of sovereign grace?

Surely you've at least one 'bogie' to justify your obsession. Surely with all this time and effort you've snatched at least one from the fire.

Winman · May 27, 2014

kyredneck said:
On the flip side, do you have a success story to share with us? You know, someone on board here that you've succeeded in convincing to leave the truths of sovereign grace?

Surely you've at least one 'bogie' to justify your obsession. Surely with all this time and effort you've snatched at least one from the fire.

What you call an obsession, I call contending for the truth, which we are commanded to do in scripture.

I doubt I have ever converted a Calvinist, nor could, it is almost impossible to convert anyone from error, anyone who has ever worked with JWs and Mormons (which I have) will tell you that. But every once in awhile...

But if I can point out some of the problems to folks who are being drawn into it, that was a good day.

Many folks know their doctrine is not scriptural, but they just don't care. I can see where a Calvinist would like to think he was specially chosen by God.

kyredneck · May 27, 2014

Winman said:
What you call an obsession, I call contending for the truth, which we are commanded to do in scripture.

I doubt I have ever converted a Calvinist, nor could, it is almost impossible to convert anyone from error, anyone who has ever worked with JWs and Mormons (which I have) will tell you that. But every once in awhile...

But if I can point out some of the problems to folks who are being drawn into it, that was a good day.

Many folks know their doctrine is not scriptural, but they just don't care. I can see where a Calvinist would like to think he was specially chosen by God.

:thumbs:Keep up the good work!

Inspector Javert · May 27, 2014

Maybe I'm missing something here. But why is the Cal/Arm debate such a huge deal?

Because both views carry with them consequences directly relevant to God himself and more specifically, his character:

Calvinists smell a direct affront to God's Sovereignty
Arminians detect a direct assault on God's character.

While the battle is waged on the field of Soteriology.....it's a "big-deal" because the results of that battle have implications to Theology Proper and the doctrine of God himself.
While right thinking about all topics of Theology is important, arguably nothing is more important than right thinking about God himself.
I think that's why it is such a big deal.

Iconoclast · May 27, 2014

Rippon said:
Lying up a storm will not advance your cause winman. You are transparently dishonest.

:applause::thumbs::applause:

Winman · May 27, 2014

Iconoclast said:
:applause::thumbs::applause:

I didn't lie, I showed from John MacArthur himself that Calvinism teaches a man is elected or chosen "outside" of Jesus and then given faith so they can believe on Jesus and be placed "in him".

John MacArthur said:
He chose us. And to those He has chosen, He gives the power to believe.

Scripture says Christians were chosen "in him". Calvinism teaches the exact opposite, that you were chosen outside Jesus.

You are primary in Calvinism, Jesus is secondary. Jesus's job is to save you the elect.

Send an email to John MacArthur. He will tell you I am telling you the absolute truth of what he believes and teaches.

psalms109:31 · May 27, 2014

I was very amazed to hear a primative Baptist or an old regular preach the Gospel to the whole world. I have never heard a primitive Baptist or old regular preach like Convicted1 did, but wasn't shocked by the change.

I know men are responsible for their action no matter how men want to blame God by His sovereignty. I know by God's sovereignty that God will give men their consequences for they are responsible for their action.

There is no condemnation for those in Christ.

I know if they do not listen and learn from the Father through Jesus Christ they will never come to Christ no matter how much a beg, but I will not take away the hope the Holy Spirit is given to men who are coming to Christ even if they can't see things the way I do.

I know Jesus will save those who come to Him.

Jesus never stopped one sinner from coming to Him only those who turned their back on Him that He only threatened them and they were religious leaders that didn't need Jesus to save them there were already saved because they were righteous on their own

convicted1 · May 27, 2014

Winman said:
See Willis, you used to quote scripture like this;

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1946951&postcount=5

You sure have changed.

Winman said:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1946924&postcount=1

This was a thread YOU started to oppose Calvinism.

Boy, what's you PROBLEM?!?!?!?!? I say boy because a boy insults his fellow Brethern like you repeatedly do. GROW UP!!!!

Iconoclast · May 27, 2014

convicted1 said:
Boy, what's you PROBLEM?!?!?!?!? I say boy because a boy insults his fellow Brethern like you repeatedly do. GROW UP!!!!

:wavey::wavey::wavey:

Iconoclast · May 27, 2014

Winman said:
If you want to cut through everything and bring it down to bare basics;

The Non-Calvinist is elect because he believed.

The Calvinist believes because he is elect.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

convicted1 · May 27, 2014

Iconoclast said:
:wavey::wavey::wavey:

Are you saying I am gone?

Someone, I don't remember who, accused you of doing that...LOL

convicted1 · May 27, 2014

Iconoclast said:
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

It's just as simple as that, and yet, many reject it....

Why is it such a big deal?

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