Oh I know why, I'm just needling you with your own words.
What I really mean is, 'I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY ME'.
He's made it plain, it was all to His good pleasure, that's all I need to know.
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Why is it such a big deal?
- Thread starter Sapper Woody
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Oh I know why, I'm just needling you with your own words.
What I really mean is, 'I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY ME'.
He's made it plain, it was all to His good pleasure, that's all I need to know.
No, it is completely obvious you do not get it at all. You were chosen "in him". You were chosen because you believed the truth (the gospel) and were baptized into Jesus. Jesus is the ELECT ONE and because you are "in him" you are elect too.
If you think he chose you outside Christ as John MacArthur clearly teaches, then you are in complete error. This false view honors MAN, not Christ.
No. I did not become one of His sheep because I believed, I believed because I'm one of His sheep.
He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8:47
Yea, I was right, poor John MacArthur, you're going to wear us all out with him now.
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False.
I 'foreknow' what's coming up in my garden because I planted it.
...Every plant which my heavenly Father planted not, shall be rooted up. Mt 15:13
What's your spin on this one?:
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
45 But because I say the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convicteth me of sin? If I say truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8
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The only spin is 24/7......oppose truth. Never actually learn....just oppose and disrupt.
Some come to learn or edify. Others oppose themself.
Some come to learn or edify. Others oppose themself.
LOL, Calvinists constantly accuse non-Cals of trying to usurp God's sovereignty with free will, but it is Calvinists that insist God could not choose to save those who freely believe.
Why oh why couldn't God choose to save persons who freely choose of their own free will to believe on Jesus?
If God wants to save only those who choose to freely believe on Jesus, and to damn those who refuse to believe on Jesus, who are you oh Calvinist to tell him he can't?
So, it's a ridiculous and nonsensical view. Calvinists have all sorts of bogus arguments like this that they have been indoctrinated with. Most cannot think well enough to see how foolish these arguments truly are.
Keep working your magic on steaver, maybe he’ll come around too!
It's almost as if he's getting paid to do it.
I foreknew all of my children would choose to sin before we actually planned to have them. Did I desire that they sin? NO. Did I plan or determine they would sin? NO.
Just because you know something beforehand does not mean you determined it.
Keep working your magic on steaver, maybe he’ll come around too!
Perhaps, that is his choice.
But you have no right to tell God how or whom he saves. If God wants to save those persons who freely and willingly choose to trust Jesus, and to damn those who freely and willingly choose to reject Jesus, what business is that of yours?
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Maybe this is why so many folks do not like Bibles that include the last 12 verses of Mark? :thumbs:
????? I have no idea where this is coming from.
No, the sower knew He was sowing wheat, the devil knew he was sowing tares.
The text is very plain:
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
45 But because I say the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convicteth me of sin? If I say truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8
YES!! Lil' ol' ME!! He who declares the end from the beginning foreknew me and predestined me and called me and justified me and glorified me, lil' ol' ME!! And I don't know why!
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? Ro 8
Praise the Lord!
OK, I don't know if you are not seeing the problem with MacArthur's view, or you simply don't care, but MacArthur believes that a person is chosen OUTSIDE Jesus.
Do you agree with that? Do you believe you were chosen OUTSIDE Jesus?
MacArthur is nothing to me. I have listened to him a few times on the radio, I can't think of any new thing I've picked up from him, he doesn't speak for me, so no, I don't care, he's irrelevant to me. Considering that you routinely misrepresent Calvinism on the whole, there's no telling the misrepresentation you're doing of him. So he becomes doubly irrelevant simply because you're the one citing him.
OK, forget MacArthur. But do you believe you were first chosen by God, and then afterward God gave you the ability to believe on Jesus?
Trusting Jesus = "in him"
Before faith in Jesus = "outside him".
So, were you chosen "in him" or "outside him" ?
We've come back around to same ol' wearisome circular back and forth tit for tat. Of course you know that 'swhat I believe.
I'm done. Gotta run to farm supply and pick up some stuff.
Carry on Winman, make us some more converts.
Believing you were chosen outside Christ is obvious error, as Ephesians 1:4 clearly says we were chosen "in him", that is, after believing. No one is "in Christ" until they believe in time.
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Paul shows here that no one is "in Christ" until they believe on Jesus in time.
How then can God choose someone "in him" before the foundation of the world if being "in him" occurs in time? Foreknowledge. God in his foreknowledge can foresee persons who will believe in time. He foresaw these persons "in Christ" in time and chose them before the foundation of the world. These are God's sheep, and whom he gave to Jesus in time. Therefore Jesus can say "my sheep hear my voice" because they were chosen because they believed the truth as 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says.
Inspector Javert
Active Member
:thumbsup::thumbsup:
Pure Scripture...
Simply put.
Accurately argued...
Pure Bible.
And the Calvinists have no argument (Scriptural anyway) against it..
"Theological" yes. "Biblical" no. And there is a difference.
Where's that elusive "like" button? :thumbsup:
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Don't forget the "before the foundation of the world" part of the verse you're quoting.
We were chosen before we believed. Ephesians 1 is quite plain.
It's your understanding of "in Christ" that is skewed.
The Archangel
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