Why is it such a big deal?

[Iconoclast]

He may be wrong but so is your characterization of his posts.

If I have mischaracterized his posts..point out to me where.... Give me a minute and I will edit in some of what I see and tell me if you do not see the same things.

So, it's a ridiculous and nonsensical view. Calvinists have all sorts of bogus arguments like this that they have been indoctrinated with. Most cannot think well enough to see how foolish these arguments truly are.
__________________

Calvinism honors man, not Jesus. That may make you angry, but it is the truth. You think God chose YOU outside Christ. That is not true.

OK, I don't know if you are not seeing the problem with MacArthur's view, or you simply don't care, but MacArthur believes that a person is chosen OUTSIDE Jesus.

How then can God choose someone "in him" before the foundation of the world if being "in him" occurs in time? Foreknowledge. God in his foreknowledge can foresee persons who will believe in time. He foresaw these persons "in Christ" in time and chose them before the foundation of the world. These are God's sheep, and whom he gave to Jesus in time. Therefore Jesus can say "my sheep hear my voice" because they were chosen because they believed the truth as 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says

That's what I mean by a Calvinist cliche. It is meaningless, doesn't prove anything, and has no support in scripture.

That's not debating. If you don't have a real argument, keep your yap shut. We already got a bunch of mindless parrots here.
__________________

This is how cultists interpret the Bible, they go through the scriptures searching for a word like "cannot" to try to prove what they have already determined to believe, Total Inability. And that is exactly what you did here

I am not denying that I used the word idiot, I freely admitted that. Is that a nice word? NO. I said it, and I meant to say it.

But I did not call you or anybody else an idiot. I said that I could not stand idiots. I know what I said and why I said it, and you have the audacity to tell me why I said it. You are too much.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Inspector Javert
Winman stated that it did not happen before the world was, but rather in time.

No, that's not what he believes.
God's Eternal purpose and plan and choice and election occured before the foundation of the world....Winman understands that.

God's eternal design was eternal and from everlasting.....not on the spur of the moment, or "looking forward down a timetunnel to see what would happen"

I agree, and although Winman appears to hold to a "Simple foreknowledge" view, I disagree with that....
But his view is not directly in opposition to Scripture.
Any prevarications we make about a scenario which pre-dates time itself, is philosophical speculation....not Scripture.
Scripture doesn't explain God's relationship to time prior to the foundation of the World.......our Philosophy does.
While I disagree with Winman's "Simple Foreknowledge" view.....it isn't inconsistent with Scripture.

God loved the elect in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
That salvation while complete on the Divine side, unfolds in time on the human side....with God being longsuffering to-usward...those he has promised by Covenant oath to save.

Winman could accept that statement as written and concur completely.
He wouldn't deny what you just said right there.

If he did not understand it, he should ask questions,

He understands it, and he does ask questions:

HE CLAIMS THAT THE WHOLE CHURCH HAS IT WRONG.

That is not even close to true.
Probably 80% of Christ-honoring, Bible-believing Christians have a view pretty similar to his.
While I think it's somewhat incomplete, it isn't heretical or un-Biblical...just a little limited perhaps.
The so-called "Simple-Foreknowledge" view is espoused by millions of Bible-believing Christians the world over.

We think it is Winman who is being a false teacher here,

Winman is not a "false teacher".
A certain unnamed, rather communistic, personage who adores female pastors and names their avatar after various crustaceons is a "false teacher"...

Even if Winman is mistaken....
That doesn't make him a "false teacher".

combing every manner of anti -cal site to oppose truth.:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

I'll give him credit for one thing...
He actually reads them.
You admit to never bothering.

He, at least, reads both Calvinistic and anti-Calvinistic websites.
You read only the Calvinist ones.

He is more teachable than you.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Winman;.
It has been explained to you over and over no one believes it like you say; here is just one example;

Icon...
It's the difference between the logical consequences of VS. the stated claims of a view-point...

Winman KNOWS no Calvinist will actually ARGUE or claim that they believe that anyone is chosen "outside of Christ"...

He argues that if taken to brass-tacks...it logically amounts to as much. Frankly, I find it a rather compelling argument. I've never heard anyone make it before.

He's not claiming that a Calvinist will SAY they aren't chosen in Christ...he's saying the good and necessary consequences is that they are chosen as individuals first...and Christ is merely the means and secondary to the individual within the schema...almost like an afterthought. It's (IMO) a rather novel, interesting, and compelling argument actually.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon...
It's the difference between the logical consequences of VS. the stated claims of a view-point...

Winman KNOWS no Calvinist will actually ARGUE or claim that they believe that anyone is chosen "outside of Christ"...

He argues that if taken to brass-tacks...it logically amounts to as much. Frankly, I find it a rather compelling argument. I've never heard anyone make it before.

He's not claiming that a Calvinist will SAY they aren't chosen in Christ...he's saying the good and necessary consequences is that they are chosen as individuals first...and Christ is merely the means and secondary to the individual within the schema...almost like an afterthought. It's (IMO) a rather novel, interesting, and compelling argument actually.

..

No...this is the same old argument that goes like this.....

Christ is elected.....like a train going to heaven......now you must put YOURSELF on the train.....then you are elected also.....he used the language of riding along on the coat tails

 

[Revmitchell]

If I have mischaracterized his posts..point out to me where.... Give me a minute and I will edit in some of what I see and tell me if you do not see the same things.

I know his knuckleheaded characterizations are not any better.

 

[Iconoclast]

I know his knuckleheaded characterizations are not any better.

:laugh::laugh:..listen we all get heated sometimes, and some is to be expected, I just find him 24/7 this way and getting worse. I just answered you on the other thread...be back in awhile.

 

[Winman]

you were answered on this and refuse the answer.....as long as you remain unteachable your comments will remain error...24/7...

It is not what the words are on the page...it is what they mean.

So you agree that I believe what they SAY, but you insist they don't mean what they say.

OK, what do they mean? And I want to know your interpretation, not some copy and paste job from some Reformed commentary or website. I would like you to explain Mark 13:32 in your own words and tell me what Jesus was saying.

Should be easy. :thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

So you agree that I believe what they SAY, but you insist they don't mean what they say.

OK, what do they mean? And I want to know your interpretation, not some copy and paste job from some Reformed commentary or website. I would like you to explain Mark 13:32 in your own words and tell me what Jesus was saying.

Should be easy. :thumbsup:

Jesus is God the Son. He never at anytime ceased to be God the Son, eternal God himself.
In Phil2...it says He took upon Himself........the form......of a servant....

God is Spirit. Jesus is God... When God the Son comes to earth.....He veiled Himself with human flesh....He never ceased to be God ever...he was 100% God. He was also 100% man

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
I had posted a link to you that explained this which you did not interact with.

DHK also worked through many passages with you to no avail.

As the Servant of the Lord he veiled the ...VISIBLE MANIFESTATIONS....of His Divine attributes.....He did not lose them, or did not empty Himself as God. Phil 2 says ;
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Any student of the bible without an agenda can see this;

24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

only God knows the heart....Jesus Knew.....He forgave sins.....He briefly manifest the reality at the transfiguration.

As a man and our mediator He was not here to do His own will ,but the will of the Father...jn6

Satan tried to get Him to act independently of the Fathers will, but He would not as the first Adam did. This explains all those passages that vex you.

 

[Winman]

..

No...this is the same old argument that goes like this.....

Christ is elected.....like a train going to heaven......now you must put YOURSELF on the train.....then you are elected also.....he used the language of riding along on the coat tails

Very good Icon, see what you can do when you put your mind to something? This is an excellent analogy. Surely as a truck driver you can imagine packages being placed "in" your truck as it drives to some distant destination. These packages are being carried along by you. I knew you could comprehend this if you thought long enough on it. :thumbs:

But how did God choose us "in him" before the foundation of the world, when we weren't placed "in him" until May of 2014? The answer is FOREKNOWLEDGE.
God can see waaaaaay into the future. He sees that person who trusted Jesus in May of 2014, that new believer "in Christ". And God could choose that person way back in eternity past.

Is there any scripture that supports this incredible view? YES. 1 Peter 1:2 says believers are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father".

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Wait a minute, that verse only says we are elect according to God the Father's foreknowledge, it doesn't actually say what the object of that foreknowledge is. Is there any scripture that shows what that object was that God foreknew and chose us according to? YES.

2 The 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This verse tells exactly what was the object of that foreknowledge, that God from the beginning chose us "through" "belief in the truth".

Wow, it all fits together perfectly without contradiction or problem. Amazing.

 

[Winman]

Jesus is God the Son. He never at anytime ceased to be God the Son, eternal God himself.
In Phil2...it says He took upon Himself........the form......of a servant....

God is Spirit. Jesus is God... When God the Son comes to earth.....He veiled Himself with human flesh....He never ceased to be God ever...he was 100% God. He was also 100% man

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
I had posted a link to you that explained this which you did not interact with.

DHK also worked through many passages with you to no avail.

As the Servant of the Lord he veiled the ...VISIBLE MANIFESTATIONS....of His Divine attributes.....He did not lose them, or did not empty Himself as God. Phil 2 says ;
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Any student of the bible without an agenda can see this;

24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

only God knows the heart....Jesus Knew.....He forgave sins.....He briefly manifest the reality at the transfiguration.

As a man and our mediator He was not here to do His own will ,but the will of the Father...jn6

Satan tried to get Him to act independently of the Fathers will, but He would not as the first Adam did. This explains all those passages that vex you.

Are you saying Jesus was LYING when he said he did not know the day and hour of his return? That almost seems what you are saying, you are saying Jesus DID KNOW when he would return. That would make Mark 13:32 a lie wouldn't it?

Is that what you are saying Icon, that Jesus was lying when he said he did not know when he would return? Yes or no?

 

[Sapper Woody]

Mods, as the OP, I'd like to request we close this thread. It's not even vaguely on topic anymore. I was trying to find out why people fought so hard over the Cal/Arm debate, and it's degenerated into discussing the deity of Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Inspector Javert

No, that's not what he believes.
God's Eternal purpose and plan and choice and election occured before the foundation of the world....Winman understands that.

I know that you are trying to do damage control. On one hand I can respect that. That places you in the difficult position of trying to defend that which you would not say by yourself...so I have no quarrel with you as far as that goes.

Winman has to acknowledge something happened before the world was as do all professed Christians....the language demands it.

So what does he do....He takes a part of the truth and rips it from the biblical context.....Jesus is the elect Servant .......Jesus alone he says is elect.

Every biblical Cal I know believes in the doctrine of Union with Christ.
The whole basis of redemption is tied to that doctrine. No Cal believes what Winman claims. Every person who will ever be saved was given by the Father to The Son....before creation....he denies this completely, saying his wrong idea OF WHAT BIBLICAL FOREKNOWLEDGE CONSISTS OF.

For whom He did FOREKNOW........not for..[what he did foreknow as in foreseen faith].......you know that is the case.

I agree, and although Winman appears to hold to a "Simple foreknowledge" view, I disagree with that....

Do you realize that you are one of the first non cals to say this? I give you credit for that in that you are being honest, and yet if you confront him on this he will turn on you also.:thumbs:

But his view is not directly in opposition to Scripture.

IJ...not trying to be cruel...but a false teacher teaches, and false teaching has small elements of truth...but at the end of the day it is what it is.
His view is out there...not just on this...but on most things.
He is not a novice, or a young struggling believer trying to learn...he opposes most godly teachers I know and have read.

Any prevarications we make about a scenario which pre-dates time itself, is philosophical speculation....not Scripture.

I do not agree...the revealed things belong to us.

Scripture doesn't explain God's relationship to time prior to the foundation of the World.......our Philosophy does.

I do not agree. God is supra temporal but that being said He created the concept of time within eternity and used it;
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

While I disagree with Winman's "Simple Foreknowledge" view.....it isn't inconsistent with Scripture.

I do not agree....God knowing all things the end from the beginning is one thing, the biblical term foreknowledge cannot be abused as it a specific term.

:

That is not even close to true.
Probably 80% of Christ-honoring, Bible-believing Christians have a view pretty similar to his.
While I think it's somewhat incomplete, it isn't heretical or un-Biblical...just a little limited perhaps.

God alone will sort that out at the White Throne Judgement...

The so-called "Simple-Foreknowledge" view is espoused by millions of Bible-believing Christians the world over.

Again God will be the judge, truth must be divinely revealed. What if those with that view perish?

Winman is not a "false teacher".

I will leave the final judgement to God, but the false teaching he posts everyday is being called into question by many here...I am just more vocal about it.

A certain unnamed, rather communistic, personage who adores female pastors and names their avatar after various crustaceons is a "false teacher"...

I have seen this also:thumbs:

Even if Winman is mistaken....
That doesn't make him a "false teacher".

A sincere cultist can be mistaken but at some point they cross the line.
Jmac...might be mistaken on endtimes...but no one says he is a false teacher because he is solid everywhere else. Winman is wrong most every time as I see it.

I'll give him credit for one thing...
He actually reads them.
You admit to never bothering.

He, at least, reads both Calvinistic and anti-Calvinistic websites.
You read only the Calvinist ones.

I look at them , see clear error, then move on....
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

He is more teachable than you.

Believe what you want:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

I have misrepresented nothing. Here is a quote from 150 years ago;

Election therefore is the act of God, making choice of his people, and giving them to his Son, to be preserved in him, and saved by him.

http://www.gracegems.org/Smith5/chosen_to_salvation.htm

Note that we are first chosen or elected, then given to Jesus TO BE preserved "in him", and saved by him. Very subtle.

So, Calvinism has always taught the men were elected outside Christ, not "in him" as Ephesians 1:4 teaches. Oh, you will see they say chosen "in him" numerous times, but this is AFTER they believe the elect were chosen outside Christ and then given to him to be "in him". Again, very subtle, most folks would not notice.

This quote was taken from a Reformed Site

We unashamedly believe and teach the historic Doctrines of Grace — which are held by the Puritans, the Reformers, Charles Spurgeon, John MacArthur, etc.

1. Total Depravity

2. Unmerited Election

3. Limited Atonement

4. Irresistible Grace

5. The Perseverance of the Saints

 

[Iconoclast]

I have misrepresented nothing. Here is a quote from 150 years ago;



http://www.gracegems.org/Smith5/chosen_to_salvation.htm

Note that we are first chosen or elected, then given to Jesus TO BE preserved "in him", and saved by him.

So, Calvinism has always taught the men were elected outside Christ, not "in him" as Ephesians 1:4 teaches.

This quote was taken from a Reformed Site

You cannot even read your own quote correctly...here is the next paragraph;


Election is the fruit of divine love, and flows from the most free, sovereign, and eternal love of God. Election is eternal — [B]the people were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. [/B]Election was to the means as well as to the end, we are not only chosen to be saved — but chosen to believe, to be sanctified by the Spirit — and so saved

 

[Winman]

You cannot even read your own quote correctly...here is the next paragraph;


Election is the fruit of divine love, and flows from the most free, sovereign, and eternal love of God. Election is eternal — [B]the people were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. [/B]Election was to the means as well as to the end, we are not only chosen to be saved — but chosen to believe, to be sanctified by the Spirit — and so saved

I can read, and I saw that many times it says "chosen in him", but that is AFTER the elect were given Jesus to be "in him" as I showed.

No one is in Jesus until they believe, and that article clearly shows a person is elected to be given faith to believe afterwards ("chosen to believe").

we are not only chosen to be saved — but chosen to believe,

Truth is, that article is full of contradictions. Nevertheless, the message comes through, Calvinism chooses the elect outside Christ, and then gives them the ability to believe so they can be in Christ.

He chose us. And to those He has chosen, He gives the power to believe.

As I said, MacArthur clearly teaches a person is chosen before they believe, when they are outside Christ, and then afterward are given the power to believe and be placed in Christ.

I am not misrepresenting Calvinism at all, this is all completely accurate.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

In post 11 you tried to answer poor sapper wood with this confused statement;

But that is not what Calvinism believes, Calvinism believes the exact opposite, Calvinism teaches that YOU were chosen OUTSIDE of Christ for the purpose of being given to Jesus AFTER you were elected

wrong again Those elected/chosen were always seen or elected In Christ.In time this election is made manifest when the Spirit quickens those elected unto life in Jesus. It was promised to the Son in eternity past ,and made a reality at regeneration. My sins were paid for before I was conceived in the womb. That payment already completed was made known to me at regeneration and conversion. You cannot grasp the answers that have been given to you as many have said that to you before...because it is true.


You were confused then and have not recovered now...poor sapper is begging for the thread to be closed....

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

<------------never mind------------->

Hilarious :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Mods, as the OP, I'd like to request we close this thread. It's not even vaguely on topic anymore. I was trying to find out why people fought so hard over the Cal/Arm debate, and it's degenerated into discussing the deity of Christ.

Snapped....give the Mode an internal message....it will get done far quuicker. I agree, this is way far afield of the origional OP.

 

[kyredneck]

....it's degenerated into discussing the deity of Christ.

.....I agree, this is way far afield of the origional OP.

"Why is it such a big deal?"

 

[Winman]

Winman

In post 11 you tried to answer poor sapper wood with this confused statement;


wrong again Those elected/chosen were always seen or elected In Christ.In time this election is made manifest when the Spirit quickens those elected unto life in Jesus. It was promised to the Son in eternity past ,and made a reality at regeneration. My sins were paid for before I was conceived in the womb. That payment already completed was made known to me at regeneration and conversion. You cannot grasp the answers that have been given to you as many have said that to you before...because it is true.


You were confused then and have not recovered now...poor sapper is begging for the thread to be closed....

Well, the truth is, Calvinists tend to made very contradictory statements, often within one single article. They will say "we are chosen in Christ" which is what the Bible teaches, but then they will say we "were chosen to believe in Christ" which would be OUTSIDE Jesus, as no one is in Jesus until they believe. Here is a perfect example from R.C. Sproul;

He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him” (Eph. 1:4).

- Ephesians 1:4

Continuing his adoration of our Father for granting us many spiritual blessings, Paul in today’s passage explains that “he chose us in him [Christ] before the foundation of the world” (Eph. 1:4). The apostle is asserting divine election unto salvation — we owe our redemption ultimately to God, whose choice of His people in eternity past ensures they will believe in His Son Jesus Christ for life eternal (Rom. 9:1–29).

Even though predestination is typically associated with Calvinism or Reformed theology, all Christians affirm divine election, as Dr. R.C. Sproul has often said, because there is no escaping the Bible’s many references to God’s choice of a people for Himself. The real issue involves the type of election we affirm. Do we affirm God’s election of specific individuals to salvation, or do we believe He chose to save the church without necessarily selecting each member of this body? Did the Father choose people in order that they would believe or did He look into the future, see who would trust Jesus alone, and choose to save these people, basing His decision on their actions?

Regarding the first question, it is true that there is a corporate aspect to election, for God has chosen to save a people (1 Peter 2:9). Yet the Lord forms this people through His choice of particular persons. Individuals make up groups, and our Father could not have chosen that the corporate body of Christ would certainly be saved if He had not also chosen who would be united to Jesus by faith. Furthermore, since both groups and individuals commit sins, the promise that sins are forgiven in Christ found in Ephesians 1:7 makes sense only if the election of a group and individuals to salvation is in view. Therefore, Ephesians 1:4 cannot be used to affirm that divine election is exclusively corporate just because God chooses a people “in Christ.”

As for the second question, let us suppose that God did, in eternity past, look ahead to see if anyone would trust Jesus. Had He done this, He would not have seen living souls but individuals dead in sin, wholly unwilling and unable to believe in Christ (Eph. 2:1–3). The Father could not have chosen anyone based on His foreknowledge of their faith, for no one would have believed without His gracious initiative. No, our Father saw fallen humanity, choosing to elect some unto salvation and to give them faith. We believe because He chose us, not the other way around.

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/chosen-christ/

It is quite clear that R.C. Sproul believes Christians are chosen BEFORE they believe, which is OUTSIDE Christ. No person is "in Christ" until they believe on Jesus in time.

Sproul believes "we believe BECAUSE he chose us". That is a perfectly clear statement. Therefore he believes a person is chosen outside Christ, so that God can give that person faith, so they can then believe on Jesus and be placed in Christ.

Calvinist view = Chosen ----> given faith -----> believes/placed "in him"

R. C. Sproul understands the non-Cal/Arminian view, that God looks ahead in his foreknowledge and sees persons who have believed on Jesus in time, seeing them "in Christ" and choosing them on the basis of this faith. He understands this view clearly, but rejects it. But he does this on the pure ASSUMPTION that Calvinism is true and that no man can believe on Jesus unless he is regenerated. Sproul assumes Total Inability is true, when that is the question.

Non-Cal/Arminian view = God foresees those who believe on Jesus in time and are "in him" -----> God chooses these persons before the foundation of the world.

Non-Cals and Arminians believe what the scriptures say, God chose us "in him". God forsees persons in time who have believed on Jesus and are "in him" and chooses these persons. Although they believed in time, with foreknowledge God was able to choose them "in him" before the foundation of the world as scripture teaches.

The Non-Cal/Arminian view agrees with scripture perfectly, the Calvinist view contradicts and disagrees with scripture.