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Why is it such a big deal?

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Inspector Javert

Active Member
Don't forget the "before the foundation of the world" part of the verse you're quoting.

He hasn't....Either God's deliberations or choice to create is relegated to only operating in some linear time-frame or it's not...

Maybe that's not how he works.

Sure, it's "before" the world began, as far as we are concerned, but so what?

God doesn't have a "before".
Gottfried Liebnitz put paid to that 200 years ago.
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
He hasn't....Either God's deliberations or choice to create is relegated to only operating in some linear time-frame or it's not...

Maybe that's not how he works.

Sure, it's "before" the world began, as far as we are concerned, but so what?

God doesn't have a "before".
Gottfried Liebnitz put paid to that 200 years ago.

So, essentially, you seek to nullify the grammar of the text based on what--your understanding of what you think God does according to your understanding of His time?

I'd rather go with the grammar. I mean, if we hold to an inspired text, we have to, right? If Jesus hangs His interpretation of the Old Testament on the tense of a verb, we ought to pay attention to the grammar, right?

The Archangel
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
He's predictable and wearisome. More often I ignore, I believe he is becoming increasingly irrelevant.

Yes. When you or Biblicist, or Archangel, or Rippon answer him and offer good verses...I like to think that those who read will be edified from the good verses.
The fact that Con 1 and before that AmyG schooled him is taking a toll on Him. I think most of the Mod's skip over his posts and how he denigrates the Divine description of who Jesus was. DHK has pity on him and tries to help, but he resists that also.
 

Inspector Javert

Active Member
So, essentially, you seek to nullify the grammar of the text based on what
HUH???

Speak English....what does it occuring "Before" the foundation of the world matter?

How does Winman's understanding negate that?
Use your words...
I'd rather go with the grammar.
You're not helping anyone unless you use English:

I'll stipulate that whatever version of the grammar you insist on is correct for these purposes....YOU SAID Winman was "forgetting" the "before the foundation of the world" part of the verse:

So, give an answer....how did he "forget it"?
What does it prove in your mind?
I mean, if we hold to an inspired text, we have to, right?
I don't care what you maintain the inspired text to say...as long as you answer a simple question using your English...

What did Winman forget?
If Jesus hangs His interpretation of the Old Testament on the tense of a verb, we ought to pay attention to the grammar, right?
Jesus doesn't "hang his interpretation" of anything upon what Archangel thinks the grammar really means....

If Winman's arguments somehow deny that election occured "before" the foundation of the world, and you can somehow demonstrate that he forgot it, than do so.
 

Winman

Active Member
Don't forget the "before the foundation of the world" part of the verse you're quoting.

We were chosen before we believed. Ephesians 1 is quite plain.

It's your understanding of "in Christ" that is skewed.

The Archangel

My understanding is quite clear, and I have stated it several times. We are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. 2 The 2:13 says we were chosen "though" sanctification of the Spirit AND BELIEF OF THE TRUTH.

Put these two verses together and it becomes plain what God the Father foresaw in his foreknowledge, our "belief of the truth".

Yes, we believe on Jesus in time (Rom 16:7) but God the Father in his foreknowledge saw us "in him" before the foundation of the world and chose us "through" belief of the truth, the gospel.

It all fits scripture perfectly with no contradictions or problems whatsoever. Non-Cals and Arminians have believed this view for centuries, it is absolutely orthodox.
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
HUH???

Speak English....what does it occuring "Before" the foundation of the world matter?

How does Winman's understanding negate that?
Use your words...

You're not helping anyone unless you use English:

I'll stipulate that whatever version of the grammar you insist on is correct for these purposes....YOU SAID Winman was "forgetting" the "before the foundation of the world" part of the verse:

So, give an answer....how did he "forget it"?
What does it prove in your mind?

I don't care what you maintain the inspired text to say...as long as you answer a simple question using your English...

What did Winman forget?

Jesus doesn't "hang his interpretation" of anything upon what Archangel thinks the grammar really means....

If Winman's arguments somehow deny that election occured "before" the foundation of the world, and you can somehow demonstrate that he forgot it, than do so.
And why, pray tell, do you think the words I'm using are not "my words?"

Do the words "nullify" and "grammar" cause that big of a commotion? And, I'll point out, they are English.

The Archangel
 

Inspector Javert

Active Member
And why, pray tell, do you think the words I'm using are not "my words?"
What?
Do the words "nullify" and "grammar" cause that big of a commotion? And, I'll point out, they are English.
You aren't picking up what I'm putting down here, maybe that's my fault. I'll assume it is.

Here's what I'm talking about:

Originally Posted by The Archangel
Don't forget the "before the foundation of the world" part of the verse you're quoting.
Please, explain or define why Winman's view is inconsistent with that portion of the verse and perhaps explain where he erred:

Explain why his view is inconsistent with this other statement you made:
We were chosen before we believed.
You seem to believe that what Winman says is inconsistent with that...

WHY?

Explain please, why Winman "forgets" that portion of that verse.
 
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Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It is quite arrogant for anyone on this board to attempt to assert that another poster is "irrelevant". Some folks need to check themselves.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
My understanding is quite clear, and I have stated it several times. We are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. 2 The 2:13 says we were chosen "though" sanctification of the Spirit AND BELIEF OF THE TRUTH.

Put these two verses together and it becomes plain what God the Father foresaw in his foreknowledge, our "belief of the truth".

Yes, we believe on Jesus in time (Rom 16:7) but God the Father in his foreknowledge saw us "in him" before the foundation of the world and chose us "through" belief of the truth, the gospel.

It all fits scripture perfectly with no contradictions or problems whatsoever. Non-Cals and Arminians have believed this view for centuries, it is absolutely orthodox.

You repeat error yet again. You insist on a wrong and unbiblical view of foreknowledge. You deny the Covenant salvation as revealed in scripture.

All Calvinistic thought that is biblical understands that not only was Jesus the Elect Servant of the Lord, but we were viewed by God as in Union with Christ before the foundation of the world, as Jesus is the lamb slain ;
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Inspector Javert


Here's what I'm talking about:
Please, explain or define why Winman's view is inconsistent with that portion of the verse and perhaps explain where he erred:
Explain why his view is inconsistent with this other statement you made:

You seem to believe that what Winman says is inconsistent with that...


Winman stated that it did not happen before the world was, but rather in time.

God's eternal design was eternal and from everlasting.....not on the spur of the moment, or "looking forward down a timetunnel to see what would happen"

God loved the elect in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
That salvation while complete on the Divine side, unfolds in time on the human side....with God being longsuffering to-usward...those he has promised by Covenant oath to save.
If he did not understand it, he should ask questions, but instead HE CLAIMS THAT THE WHOLE CHURCH HAS IT WRONG.
We think it is Winman who is being a false teacher here, combing every manner of anti -cal site to oppose truth.:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
 

Winman

Active Member
You repeat error yet again. You insist on a wrong and unbiblical view of foreknowledge. You deny the Covenant salvation as revealed in scripture.

All Calvinistic thought that is biblical understands that not only was Jesus the Elect Servant of the Lord, but we were viewed by God as in Union with Christ before the foundation of the world, as Jesus is the lamb slain ;
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

You admit we were viewed (foreknowledge) as being "in Christ" before the foundation of the world.

And Ephesians 1:4 says we were chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world.

Well, that makes it pretty simple, we are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1 Pet 1:2) who viewed us as being in Christ before the foundation of the world. God could foresee us believing in time, he foresaw us "in Christ". You are coming around to the truth.

But Calvinism teaches a person is chosen OUTSIDE Christ. They teach a man is chosen and then given the faith to believe. This is election OUTSIDE Christ and is pure error.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Really? A simple "I disagree with you" is not good enough?

Hello RM,

I am okay with many who disagree with me and we dialogue back and forth. A poster such as Allan and I did not always agree , but he made biblical coherent arguments, and I am confident he would not be guilty of butchering a soul but would remove obstacles that would urge that person into a saving relationship.

Over time and over 10000 posts from Winman, where now this week he has claimed that Jesus emptied himself of deity..is not just a simple disagree with you issue. It is willful and deliberate false teaching and an active attack upon the historic faith no matter how you look at it.

Every thread every day he cuts and pastes his own error, then he attacks any like rippon, or Con 1 who have been nothing but kind to him.
Even DHK was on the verge of full Calvinism when attempting to offer correction to Winman.....:laugh:

No...Rm....I am not sure a simple I disagree will be okay
 

Winman

Active Member
Hello RM,

I am okay with many who disagree with me and we dialogue back and forth. A poster such as Allan and I did not always agree , but he made biblical coherent arguments, and I am confident he would not be guilty of butchering a soul but would remove obstacles that would urge that person into a saving relationship.

Over time and over 10000 posts from Winman, where now this week he has claimed that Jesus emptied himself of deity..is not just a simple disagree with you issue. It is willful and deliberate false teaching and an active attack upon the historic faith no matter how you look at it.

Every thread every day he cuts and pastes his own error, then he attacks any like rippon, or Con 1 who have been nothing but kind to him.
Even DHK was on the verge of full Calvinism when attempting to offer correction to Winman.....:laugh:

No...Rm....I am not sure a simple I disagree will be okay

I showed Mark 13:32 where Jesus plainly said he did not know the day and hour he would return. Evangelist admitted that is what it said. DHK admitted that is what Jesus said, but said it was for a specific time only, something he could hardly know. You have refused to answer.

Tell me Icon, did Jesus say he did not know the day and hour he would return or not?

Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Come on Icon, I know you can do this without having to rely on what Reformed teachers tell you, did Jesus say he did not know the day and hour he would return or not?

Yes or no Icon?
 
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Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Winman;.

But Calvinism teaches a person is chosen OUTSIDE Christ. They teach a man is chosen and then given the faith to believe. This is election OUTSIDE Christ and is pure error.

It has been explained to you over and over no one believes it like you say; here is just one example;

What is the significance of the fact that believers are united to Christ? Reformed theologians have historically argued that there are a number of different aspects to our union with Christ. For example, we are united to Christ in terms of our election “in him.” We were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit at this point and united to Christ by faith because we did not even exist except in the mind of God. Nevertheless, we are united to Christ in terms of the Father’s decision to elect individual fallen sinners and redeem them through His Son. Hence, in this sense, we are united to Christ in the decree of election.[/QUOTE]

for any who would like to read more;
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/union-with-christ-in-pauls-epistles/

or another;
Union with Christ is at once a difficult and woefully neglected subject (the latter possibly explained by the former). Yet Sinclair Ferguson writes that union with Christ is “a doctrine which lies at the heart of the Christian life and is intimately related to all the other doctrines.… Union with Christ is the foundation of all our spiritual experience and all spiritual blessings.”11 And Murray observes that “Union with Christ is really the central truth of the whole doctrine of salvation, not only in its application but also in its once-for-all accomplishment in the finished work of Christ.”12 In addition, the respected theologian A. W. Pink introduces his work on union with this emphatic statement:

The present writer has not the least doubt in his mind that the subject of spiritual union is the most important, the most profound, and yet the most blessed of any that is set forth in the sacred Scriptures; and yet, sad to say, there is hardly any which is now more generally neglected. The very expression “spiritual union” is unknown in most professing Christian circles, and even where it is employed it is given such a protracted meaning as to take in only a fragment of this precious truth. Probably its very profundity is the reason why it is so largely ignored in this superficial age.13

Counselors must emphasize the doctrine of union with Christ because it incorporates two key issues essential to understanding change and struggle. First, union with Christ is an all-encompassing doctrine. “It embraces the wide span of salvation from its ultimate source in the eternal election of God to its final fruition in the glorification of the elect.”14 Second, it is the one doctrine that embraces the factors of what Christ has accomplished (the indicative) and what believers are commanded to do (the imperative). Moule says that the gospel begins “in the indicative statement of what God has done,” and before it goes on to the imperatives “to struggle” it confronts us with the imperative “to attach oneself (be baptized! be incorporate!).”15
Configured between what God has accomplished in Christ and what we are to do in obedience, and possessed with a scope that extends from eternity past to eternity future, union with Christ is an indispensable doctrine in understanding change and struggle in people’s lives.
http://learntheology.com/union-with-christ-the-implications-for-biblical-counseling.html

again;
Historically Reformed theologians have recognized that union with Christ is not merely one aspect of the order of salvation but is the hub from which the spokes are drawn. One can find such conclusions in the theology of Reformed luminaries such as John Owen, Herman Witsius, and Thomas Boston, to name a few. That union undergirds the whole of the order of salvation is evident from Paul's book-end statements that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world and that only those who are in Christ will be raised from the dead and clothed in immortality. In fact, we may say that there are three phases of our union with Christ, the predestinarian "in Christ," the redemptive-historical "in Christ," the union involved in the once-for-all accomplishment of salvation, and the applicatory "in Christ," which is the union in the actual possession or application of salvation. These three phases refer not to different unions but rather to different aspects of the same union.
http://modernreformation.org/default.php?page=printfriendly&var1=Print&var2=7
 
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Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I showed Mark 13:32 where Jesus plainly said he did not know the day and hour he would return. Evangelist admitted that is what it said. DHK admitted that is what Jesus said, but said it was for a specific time only, something he could hardly know. You have refused to answer.

Tell me Icon, did Jesus say he did not know the day and hour he would return or not?

Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Come on Icon, I know you can do this without having to rely on what Reformed teachers tell you, did Jesus say he did not know the day and hour he would return or not?

Yes or no Icon?
you were answered on this and refuse the answer.....as long as you remain unteachable your comments will remain error...24/7...

It is not what the words are on the page...it is what they mean.
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
To believe in Jesus you don't have to believe in anything right now just Jesus. We are turn to Him just they we are sinners dead in sin. We are to come to Him as a child listen and learn from Him and He will lead us to the truth.

Do as the scripture teaches to trust on the Lord over our own understanding.

We want to be Spiritual before we come to Christ knowing it all, you can't come to Him if you do not listen and learn and you do not have anything to believe in if you don't.

The only thing I knew was to believe in Jesus and everything I learned came from doing that. That was the first seed that was planted in me and the only thing I knew at my young age around 8 was just thought He was just a teacher to teach me a prophet of some sort.

I know now the only way to the Father is through Him.

I cannot come to know the Father except through Him. My Lord and My God.

I was just a dog who begged at His table no sheep of His now He had included me when I heard the Gospel of my salvation having believed and now treats me as one of His own.

I have no problem admitting who I was before Christ.
 
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