So, whenever a Calvinist says God chose us "in him" before the foundation of the world, that statement itself is a direct contradiction and logically impossible, because they believe God chose the elect BEFORE faith. They were not "in him" when they were chosen, they had not yet believed and were therefore outside Jesus. So saying they were chosen "in him" is impossible and a contradiction in the Calvinist view. It cannot possibly be true.
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Why is it such a big deal?
- Thread starter Sapper Woody
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convicted1
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My apologies Brother if I aided in your OP going off course....
Here John Piper reveals he believes a person is chosen before faith and before they are "in him"
http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/god-has-chosen-us-in-him-before-the-foundation-of-the-earth
As is plain, Piper believes persons are chosen "to be" rich in faith. He believes persons are chosen before faith.
But he also believes persons are chosen "to bring" them "into Christ". Plain as day, Piper believes God has chosen men outside Christ for the purpose of giving them faith so they can believe and be brought "into Christ".
Again, I have not misrepresented Calvinism whatsoever, I have shown that MacArthur, Sproul, and Piper all believe God chooses or elects a man before faith, before he is "in him" which violates and disagrees with Ephesians 1:4.
John Piper said:
http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/god-has-chosen-us-in-him-before-the-foundation-of-the-earth
As is plain, Piper believes persons are chosen "to be" rich in faith. He believes persons are chosen before faith.
But he also believes persons are chosen "to bring" them "into Christ". Plain as day, Piper believes God has chosen men outside Christ for the purpose of giving them faith so they can believe and be brought "into Christ".
Again, I have not misrepresented Calvinism whatsoever, I have shown that MacArthur, Sproul, and Piper all believe God chooses or elects a man before faith, before he is "in him" which violates and disagrees with Ephesians 1:4.
Winman you've come a long way over the last 4-5 years, you've probably quoted at least half dozen commentators on this thread alone, "why can't you argue for yourself? Don't you know the scriptures? Or do you just rely on the interpretations of others?" :laugh:
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You know quite well I can argue for myself and present scripture to back all of my views.
But my argument here concerns what Calvinists really believe, and so I have to copy and paste what leading Calvinists such as John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, and John Piper teach concerning Ephesians 1:4. I have copied just those comments that concern what is being discussed, but I have provided links so anyone can go and see for themselves that I am not misrepresenting what famous Calvinist theologians actually believe.
Calvinists (or at least the ones I have shown) all believe God chose the elect BEFORE faith. That is OUTSIDE Christ. This makes man PRIMARY and Jesus SECONDARY. It makes Jesus subordinate to the elect, his death was to provide atonement for these fortunate elect persons God chose.
In the non-Cal/Arm view it is just the opposite, God chose JESUS. Jesus is the "elect one", the "chosen one", "my beloved". God in his foreknowledge looked ahead in time and saw persons who believed on Jesus in time. He saw these believers "in him" in time, and chose these persons he foresaw before the foundation of the world. This fits Ephesians 1:4 perfectly without any problem or contradiction.
Calvinists clearly understand the non-Cal view as Sproul wrote in his article, but he dismissed it ASSUMING Total Depravity as held by Calvinism is correct, when that is the question.
Calvinism clearly contradicts and disagrees with Ephesians 1:4, it shows the elect were chosen before faith, and before they were "in him".
I have not misrepresented Calvinism at all, and I proved that by quoting famous Calvinists directly.
You're fixated on this 'chosen in Him' kick as if now you've finally got those rotten Calvinists where you want them, they're done for now, and it's actually the same old flesh polluted garbage you've been pushing since you've been on this board.
The natural man void of the Spirit is not capable of faith. One must first be born from above in order to enter, or to even see the kingdom of God. One must first be in Christ in order to have faith. Just as those in Jn 1:12 'receiving Him' did so only because they were first born of God, v 13.
This is not about "having Calvinists where I want them". You don't know me at all. For me it is about sound doctrine, what the Bible is really teaching. That is what I care about.
That part of your statement I highlighted is error. No one is "in Christ" before faith. The Bible clearly teaches we are baptized into him by faith.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
The moment we believe we are baptized "into Christ" not before. We are not chosen in him to believe, we believe to be chosen in him.
No one is "in Christ" until they believe in time.
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Romans 16:7 refutes the Calvinist concept that Christians were actually "in Christ" or "in him" before the foundation of the world. This verse clearly shows persons are placed "in Christ" in time when they believe on Jesus. Andronicus and Junia had believed the gospel and trusted Christ before Paul in time.
So no one was "in him" before the foundation of the world. So how could we be chosen in him before the foundation of the world as Ephesians 1:4 clearly says? The answer is foreknowledge. We are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1 Pet 1:2). God the Father in his foreknowledge could see and foreknow persons who trusted in Jesus in time. God saw and foreknew these persons "in him" and chose them before the foundation of the world.
The non-Cal/Arminian view of election fits scripture perfectly without problem or contradiction, the Calvinist view completely disagrees with scripture.
And that is what I care about.
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Kyred....Winman is a parrot...he cannot think for himself
Winman can only cut and paste from reformed men because he cannot answer in his own words to give an accurate explanation of the correct view:laugh::wavey: He quotes sproul but does not understand at all. Winman...stop cutting and pasting....speak for your self in your own words....in fact do it in another section.....maybe instead of a cal /arm forum, they could start a winman forum and let's see who wants to go.....lol
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Hello Sapper Woody, I only read your OP and not the many pages of posts since then.
Why does each side think it is a big deal, when from your perspective, the differences only impact the approaches used in efforts to carry our ministry.
As I have posted many times before, I think Calvinism hinders reaching the lost, because nothing we do will alter the outcome of our lives. If God chose us as an individual before the foundation of the world, we will be saved. And if not, no amount of prayer, study, witnessing, whatever will result in our salvation. And each and every Calvinist will say, so what, we were commanded to pray, preach, witness and whatever to present the gospel to all men. Never-mind such an answer is irrational nonsense.
So I see Calvinism as a mistaken doctrine, destructive to the health of the body, causing unrest, factions, and a reliance on fallacy, such as all the ad homenims fired endlessly in our discussions.
Why does each side think it is a big deal, when from your perspective, the differences only impact the approaches used in efforts to carry our ministry.
As I have posted many times before, I think Calvinism hinders reaching the lost, because nothing we do will alter the outcome of our lives. If God chose us as an individual before the foundation of the world, we will be saved. And if not, no amount of prayer, study, witnessing, whatever will result in our salvation. And each and every Calvinist will say, so what, we were commanded to pray, preach, witness and whatever to present the gospel to all men. Never-mind such an answer is irrational nonsense.
So I see Calvinism as a mistaken doctrine, destructive to the health of the body, causing unrest, factions, and a reliance on fallacy, such as all the ad homenims fired endlessly in our discussions.
I could easily speak for myself and say what Calvinism believes and teaches, but then I would be accused of misrepresenting Calvinism. Therefore in this instance it was necessary to quote and provide links directly to well known and famous theologians in Calvinism.
And if you are honest you will admit that Calvinists make very contradictory statements that cannot logically be true. They say the elect were chosen before faith "in him" which is absolutely impossible, as no one is "in Christ" until they believe.
But you are not really interested in truth, you are more interested in keeping your tradition of men.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
My problem is that Calvinism honors man and worships man more than Christ. Now, no Calvinist would ever openly say such a thing, but that is what the doctrine logically teaches.
Calvinism teaches that God chooses THE MAN. You are chosen before the foundation of the world. Now, they will say they do not know why you were chosen and that you were not chosen because you were better than others, or because of faith or any other conditional reasons. Nevertheless, it has to tickle the ego to believe that God chose YOU personally over literally BILLIONS of people God chose to pass by and let perish.
This is man-centered theology, which is ironic as Calvinists love to accuse others of being man-centered.
The non-Cal/Arminian view believes God chose JESUS. Jesus is the elect one, the chosen one, the "beloved" of God. This is a Christ-centered view. In the non-Cal view men are only "elect" because God in his foreknowledge saw believers "in him" (Jesus) in time before the foundation of the world.
One view honors man, the other honors Christ. HUGE difference.
Winman
I was just having fun with you winman,as you are now doing what you accuse me of.....cut and paste and being a parrot who cannot think:laugh:
only rarely do you or others say the view accurately....that is why everyone corrects you.....it is your strawman that we resist.
Links are good and should be used. if people want to look up the verses they work better.
How about if I am honest and do not agree with you on this. I think what you consider a contradiction is the part that you do not understand.
If you look at what I posted on union with Christ you might "get it".
I was just having fun with you winman,as you are now doing what you accuse me of.....cut and paste and being a parrot who cannot think:laugh:
only rarely do you or others say the view accurately....that is why everyone corrects you.....it is your strawman that we resist.
Links are good and should be used. if people want to look up the verses they work better.
How about if I am honest and do not agree with you on this. I think what you consider a contradiction is the part that you do not understand.
If you look at what I posted on union with Christ you might "get it".
It would ridiculous to accuse me of being a parrot when I am known for being very different than everyone else.
You don't seem to realize that your opinions are just that, opinions. Just because many Reformed "scholars" agree with you does not necessarily make you correct. A few hundred years ago the vast majority of the great scientific minds believed that the world was flat and that life generated spontaneously.
Most of your views come from about that same superstitious time in history.
Not as a substitute for personal argument. I make my own arguments and show scripture to support them. Usually, in those few times I copy and paste it is to show my interpretation of a verse is orthodox, which it almost always is, or in this case I had to show the views of famous Calvinists so that I could not be accused of misrepresenting what they really believe.
Your disagreement does not negate that it is a contradiction to believe someone can be "in Christ" before faith. That is logically impossible. If you disagree it is because you do not understand logic.
You play with words. To foreknow someone is to know all about that person, including their faith. If you really know someone, you know what they believe. You try to argue that God could know someone in an intimate and personal way and not know what they believe. That is ridiculous.
You need to quit believing everything you are told and put a little thought into things. You would see that most of these "cliche" Calvinist arguments are absolutely ridiculous.
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Winman
It was a dose of your own medicine.....how did you like it?
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When you do it comes out as error ,usually with a novelty that is unscriptural. We have shown this many times...so this is not new.
This is so foolish , how can you say such a thing......where these verses a contradiction?
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Before Jeremiah was formed, before he was even conceived God knew him intimately and sanctified him, and ordained him....so you can keep your logical impossibility to yourself...it is what is keeping you from truth.
You fail to explain the biblical usage and use your own distorted ideas.
4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Poor sapperwood wanted to know why this is a big deal,and here it is...you turn from biblical revelation and substitute your own strange notions in it's place.
I have always believed these things as soon as I read Ephesians and Romans as a believer....it has never been an issue until I learned about the level of rebellion in the professing church about these things.
It was a dose of your own medicine.....how did you like it?
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When you do it comes out as error ,usually with a novelty that is unscriptural. We have shown this many times...so this is not new.
This is so foolish , how can you say such a thing......where these verses a contradiction?
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Before Jeremiah was formed, before he was even conceived God knew him intimately and sanctified him, and ordained him....so you can keep your logical impossibility to yourself...it is what is keeping you from truth.
You fail to explain the biblical usage and use your own distorted ideas.
4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Poor sapperwood wanted to know why this is a big deal,and here it is...you turn from biblical revelation and substitute your own strange notions in it's place.
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I have always believed these things as soon as I read Ephesians and Romans as a believer....it has never been an issue until I learned about the level of rebellion in the professing church about these things.
Again, you seem not to realize that your opinion is opinion, not fact.
Dude, you are agreeing with my view and refuting yours. God in his foreknowledge saw before the foundation of the world that Jeremiah would believe in time. We are not known of God until we believe.
Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Here Paul speaks of new believers. Before they were saved, "then" they knew not God. But "now" they know him, that is after they have believed in time.
But very important, notice that God also "now" knows them. This is what you do not realize, no one enters into an intimate and personal relationship with God until they believe in time.
But God in his foreknowledge can foresee this personal relationship that begins in time when a person believes. He can foresee that person "in Christ".
So, you are proving the foreknowledge view and refuting yours. Nobody was in Christ before the foundation of the world, that only happens in time when a person believes. And God can only "foreknow" that person in a personal relationship when he sees their future faith and when that person is placed in Christ.
The non-Cal/Arminian view agrees with all scripture, the Calvinist view has more holes in it than the Titanic.
You think foreknowledge is about having sex?
It is a big deal because Calvinism makes man primary, and Jesus secondary. The fact that you cannot understand this does not negate that it is true.
You believe whatever Reformed "scholars" tell you, it is easier than thinking for yourself.
The above is utterly false and malicious.
God chooses the elect. We don't elect ourselves. And as I taught you before from the Scripture --we don't add or delete our names from the Lamb's book of life. The names of His elect were written there before the foundation of the world. You really need to study the book of Revelation --it is more than prophecy and symbology.
Yes, the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world.
To the praise of His glory. It was His good pleasure. That should satisfy any child of God.
Every true believer in Christ --even those who rail against the doctrine of election --as sad as that rebellion of the Word of God is -- has been elected before the foundation of the world. Yes, even those who are not Calvinists! If you winamn --are a true believer in the Lord --you ought not feel any sense of personal achievement. You should be humbled that you as rotten a sinner as you are (all the elect are in the same boat)have been a recipient of God's grace.
You are being completely illogical. It is the Lord who chooses His own --not people. It is His grace -- not attributable to anything within ourselves --but to be found solely in His mercy -- it is absurd of you to charge this biblical doctrine to be man-centered. Talk about turning things on their head!
Since you despise the biblical doctrine of election and seek to wrest the Scripture, as is your wont -- you dishonor Christ in so doing.
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Actually, it his viewpoint that exaults man up, as We are the ones to decide by our own free will just when we will allow and permit God to save us, or perhaps God already has saved all of us by the Cross, so no need to trust in Christ anymore?
just have a really hard time holding that sinners by themselves can freely will to accept jesus and get saved, or that we are all born innocent, and only take ourselves out of salvation by act of that same will!
just have a really hard time holding that sinners by themselves can freely will to accept jesus and get saved, or that we are all born innocent, and only take ourselves out of salvation by act of that same will!
It surprises me that the KJV missed the mark on this one, it should read 'sons of God', in lieu of 'children of God':
for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus, Gal 3:26 YLT
....with 'sons of God' denoting maturity in contrast to 'children of God'. But you know that already, as I said this has become circular, it's the same ol' same ol', we've been here before:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2087003#post2087003
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2087010#post2087010
....and this is the order we're given from the example:
Jehovah redeems with a strong hand from the House of Bondage.
His redeemed are baptized into Christ through the Red Sea.
The glad tidings that Jehovah has given His redeemed the Promised Land for their taking is preached to them while they're in the Wilderness.
Most disobey and spend their lives as lost sheep wandering in the wilderness because of their unbelief.
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I realize you don't believe that, but that is the logical conclusion of believing you were chosen before faith, which is logically impossible to begin with.
Everybody's name was originally in the book of life. You never read of anyone being added to the book of life, only of names being blotted out.
They were chosen "in him" which only occurs after faith.
No, they were chosen "through" sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth. You have to believe to be chosen. (2 The 2:13)
You actually said the truth and do not realize it. Yes, every true "believer" is elected. You have to believe to be elected. But how could someone believe before the foundation of the world when they did not exist? They couldn't. So how could God choose them "in him"? FOREKNOWLEDGE. 1 Peter 1:2 says we are elect according to God the Father's foreknowledge. He saw the future and those persons who believed on Jesus in time. He saw them "in Christ" in time way back before the foundation of the world and chose them because they believed as 2 The 2:13 says.
We have access into God's grace by faith.
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Without faith you will not get anything from God.
Jam 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to please God without faith. He is not going to choose you if you do not believe.
I don't despise election, I just understand it differently from you. I believe God could foresee those persons who would believe on Jesus in time and chose them from the foundation of the world.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations, You have destroyed the wicked; You have blotted out their name forever and ever.
Psalm 109:13
Let his posterity be cut off, And in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
Exodus 32:33
And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
Psalm 69:28
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous.
Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Luke 12:9
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Romans 11:
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
James 2:26
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
You have rebuked the nations, You have destroyed the wicked; You have blotted out their name forever and ever.
Psalm 109:13
Let his posterity be cut off, And in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
Exodus 32:33
And the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
Psalm 69:28
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, And not be written with the righteous.
Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Luke 12:9
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Romans 11:
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
James 2:26
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
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