Featured Why is it such a big deal?

If I have mischaracterized his posts..point out to me where.... Give me a minute and I will edit in some of what I see and tell me if you do not see the same things.

 

Icon...
It's the difference between the logical consequences of VS. the stated claims of a view-point...

Winman KNOWS no Calvinist will actually ARGUE or claim that they believe that anyone is chosen "outside of Christ"...

He argues that if taken to brass-tacks...it logically amounts to as much. Frankly, I find it a rather compelling argument. I've never heard anyone make it before.

He's not claiming that a Calvinist will SAY they aren't chosen in Christ...he's saying the good and necessary consequences is that they are chosen as individuals first...and Christ is merely the means and secondary to the individual within the schema...almost like an afterthought. It's (IMO) a rather novel, interesting, and compelling argument actually.

 

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No...this is the same old argument that goes like this.....

Christ is elected.....like a train going to heaven......now you must put YOURSELF on the train.....then you are elected also.....he used the language of riding along on the coat tails

 

I know his knuckleheaded characterizations are not any better.

 

:laugh::laugh:..listen we all get heated sometimes, and some is to be expected, I just find him 24/7 this way and getting worse. I just answered you on the other thread...be back in awhile.

 

So you agree that I believe what they SAY, but you insist they don't mean what they say.

OK, what do they mean? And I want to know your interpretation, not some copy and paste job from some Reformed commentary or website. I would like you to explain Mark 13:32 in your own words and tell me what Jesus was saying.

Should be easy. :thumbsup:

 

Jesus is God the Son. He never at anytime ceased to be God the Son, eternal God himself.
In Phil2...it says He took upon Himself........the form......of a servant....

God is Spirit. Jesus is God... When God the Son comes to earth.....He veiled Himself with human flesh....He never ceased to be God ever...he was 100% God. He was also 100% man

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
I had posted a link to you that explained this which you did not interact with.

DHK also worked through many passages with you to no avail.

As the Servant of the Lord he veiled the ...VISIBLE MANIFESTATIONS....of His Divine attributes.....He did not lose them, or did not empty Himself as God. Phil 2 says ;
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Any student of the bible without an agenda can see this;

24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

only God knows the heart....Jesus Knew.....He forgave sins.....He briefly manifest the reality at the transfiguration.

As a man and our mediator He was not here to do His own will ,but the will of the Father...jn6

Satan tried to get Him to act independently of the Fathers will, but He would not as the first Adam did. This explains all those passages that vex you.

 

Very good Icon, see what you can do when you put your mind to something? This is an excellent analogy. Surely as a truck driver you can imagine packages being placed "in" your truck as it drives to some distant destination. These packages are being carried along by you. I knew you could comprehend this if you thought long enough on it. :thumbs:

But how did God choose us "in him" before the foundation of the world, when we weren't placed "in him" until May of 2014? The answer is FOREKNOWLEDGE.
God can see waaaaaay into the future. He sees that person who trusted Jesus in May of 2014, that new believer "in Christ". And God could choose that person way back in eternity past.

Is there any scripture that supports this incredible view? YES. 1 Peter 1:2 says believers are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father".

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Wait a minute, that verse only says we are elect according to God the Father's foreknowledge, it doesn't actually say what the object of that foreknowledge is. Is there any scripture that shows what that object was that God foreknew and chose us according to? YES.

2 The 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

This verse tells exactly what was the object of that foreknowledge, that God from the beginning chose us "through" "belief in the truth".

Wow, it all fits together perfectly without contradiction or problem. Amazing.

 

Are you saying Jesus was LYING when he said he did not know the day and hour of his return? That almost seems what you are saying, you are saying Jesus DID KNOW when he would return. That would make Mark 13:32 a lie wouldn't it?

Is that what you are saying Icon, that Jesus was lying when he said he did not know when he would return? Yes or no?

 

Inspector Javert

I know that you are trying to do damage control. On one hand I can respect that. That places you in the difficult position of trying to defend that which you would not say by yourself...so I have no quarrel with you as far as that goes.

Winman has to acknowledge something happened before the world was as do all professed Christians....the language demands it.

So what does he do....He takes a part of the truth and rips it from the biblical context.....Jesus is the elect Servant .......Jesus alone he says is elect.

Every biblical Cal I know believes in the doctrine of Union with Christ.
The whole basis of redemption is tied to that doctrine. No Cal believes what Winman claims. Every person who will ever be saved was given by the Father to The Son....before creation....he denies this completely, saying his wrong idea OF WHAT BIBLICAL FOREKNOWLEDGE CONSISTS OF.

For whom He did FOREKNOW........not for..[what he did foreknow as in foreseen faith].......you know that is the case.

Do you realize that you are one of the first non cals to say this? I give you credit for that in that you are being honest, and yet if you confront him on this he will turn on you also.:thumbs:

IJ...not trying to be cruel...but a false teacher teaches, and false teaching has small elements of truth...but at the end of the day it is what it is.
His view is out there...not just on this...but on most things.
He is not a novice, or a young struggling believer trying to learn...he opposes most godly teachers I know and have read.

I do not agree...the revealed things belong to us.

I do not agree. God is supra temporal but that being said He created the concept of time within eternity and used it;
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

I do not agree....God knowing all things the end from the beginning is one thing, the biblical term foreknowledge cannot be abused as it a specific term.

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God alone will sort that out at the White Throne Judgement...

Again God will be the judge, truth must be divinely revealed. What if those with that view perish?

I will leave the final judgement to God, but the false teaching he posts everyday is being called into question by many here...I am just more vocal about it.

I have seen this also:thumbs:

A sincere cultist can be mistaken but at some point they cross the line.
Jmac...might be mistaken on endtimes...but no one says he is a false teacher because he is solid everywhere else. Winman is wrong most every time as I see it.

I look at them , see clear error, then move on....
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Believe what you want:thumbs:

 

I have misrepresented nothing. Here is a quote from 150 years ago;

http://www.gracegems.org/Smith5/chosen_to_salvation.htm

Note that we are first chosen or elected, then given to Jesus TO BE preserved "in him", and saved by him. Very subtle.

So, Calvinism has always taught the men were elected outside Christ, not "in him" as Ephesians 1:4 teaches. Oh, you will see they say chosen "in him" numerous times, but this is AFTER they believe the elect were chosen outside Christ and then given to him to be "in him". Again, very subtle, most folks would not notice.

This quote was taken from a Reformed Site

 

You cannot even read your own quote correctly...here is the next paragraph;


Election is the fruit of divine love, and flows from the most free, sovereign, and eternal love of God. Election is eternal — [B]the people were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. [/B]Election was to the means as well as to the end, we are not only chosen to be saved — but chosen to believe, to be sanctified by the Spirit — and so saved

 

I can read, and I saw that many times it says "chosen in him", but that is AFTER the elect were given Jesus to be "in him" as I showed.

No one is in Jesus until they believe, and that article clearly shows a person is elected to be given faith to believe afterwards ("chosen to believe").

Truth is, that article is full of contradictions. Nevertheless, the message comes through, Calvinism chooses the elect outside Christ, and then gives them the ability to believe so they can be in Christ.

As I said, MacArthur clearly teaches a person is chosen before they believe, when they are outside Christ, and then afterward are given the power to believe and be placed in Christ.

I am not misrepresenting Calvinism at all, this is all completely accurate.

 

Winman

In post 11 you tried to answer poor sapper wood with this confused statement;

wrong again Those elected/chosen were always seen or elected In Christ.In time this election is made manifest when the Spirit quickens those elected unto life in Jesus. It was promised to the Son in eternity past ,and made a reality at regeneration. My sins were paid for before I was conceived in the womb. That payment already completed was made known to me at regeneration and conversion. You cannot grasp the answers that have been given to you as many have said that to you before...because it is true.


You were confused then and have not recovered now...poor sapper is begging for the thread to be closed....

 

Hilarious :laugh:

 

Snapped....give the Mode an internal message....it will get done far quuicker. I agree, this is way far afield of the origional OP.

 

"Why is it such a big deal?"

 

Well, the truth is, Calvinists tend to made very contradictory statements, often within one single article. They will say "we are chosen in Christ" which is what the Bible teaches, but then they will say we "were chosen to believe in Christ" which would be OUTSIDE Jesus, as no one is in Jesus until they believe. Here is a perfect example from R.C. Sproul;

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/chosen-christ/

It is quite clear that R.C. Sproul believes Christians are chosen BEFORE they believe, which is OUTSIDE Christ. No person is "in Christ" until they believe on Jesus in time.

Sproul believes "we believe BECAUSE he chose us". That is a perfectly clear statement. Therefore he believes a person is chosen outside Christ, so that God can give that person faith, so they can then believe on Jesus and be placed in Christ.

Calvinist view = Chosen ----> given faith -----> believes/placed "in him"

R. C. Sproul understands the non-Cal/Arminian view, that God looks ahead in his foreknowledge and sees persons who have believed on Jesus in time, seeing them "in Christ" and choosing them on the basis of this faith. He understands this view clearly, but rejects it. But he does this on the pure ASSUMPTION that Calvinism is true and that no man can believe on Jesus unless he is regenerated. Sproul assumes Total Inability is true, when that is the question.

Non-Cal/Arminian view = God foresees those who believe on Jesus in time and are "in him" -----> God chooses these persons before the foundation of the world.

Non-Cals and Arminians believe what the scriptures say, God chose us "in him". God forsees persons in time who have believed on Jesus and are "in him" and chooses these persons. Although they believed in time, with foreknowledge God was able to choose them "in him" before the foundation of the world as scripture teaches.

The Non-Cal/Arminian view agrees with scripture perfectly, the Calvinist view contradicts and disagrees with scripture.