Why is it worth fighting over?

[Winman]

I agree. Mountains are being made of molehills.

Oh, but it is a HUGE deal. Do you believe God passes by sinners and lets them go to hell without trying to save them? Is that what Jesus taught?

Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

I don't know if you are aware, but Jesus is the Good Samaritan in this parable. A Samaritan was a half breed, Jesus was the God-man. The oil and wine are the word of God and the Spirit that heals, and the host of the inn is the Holy Spirit who abides with us until Jesus returns.

Did Jesus "pass by" this poor sinner who was perishing as Calvinism teaches God does?

It is a BIG deal. Calvinism attacks the character of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

The doctrines of grace are to be used at all times and not hidden under a bushel.This idea is not correct.

 

[Rippon]

Do you believe God passes by sinners and lets them go to hell without trying to save them?

You have a poor,pathetic version of god who "tries to save" but just can't manage to winman. The God of the Bible stands in direct opposition to your recasting.

 

[Winman]

The doctrines of grace are to be used at all times and not hidden under a bushel.This idea is not correct.

That is not what I am talking about and you know it. Calvinism teaches that God "passes by" the non-elect and allows them to go to hell. God could save them, but according to Calvinism he is pleased to let these persons perish for his glory.

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.[17]

 

[Winman]

the biblical model is to teach/preach jesus is the Lord, that his death was atonement for sinners, and that the Holy Spirit will do His work among the lost to save out His own people...

AFTER the salvation experience, then we are to start discipling, the meat of the word, NOT to go thru the DoG right when presenting the Gospel, as that is given to the saved!

You mean "some" sinners. If you believe in Limited Atonement then you do not believe Jesus died for all sinners. You cannot tell a single individual that Jesus died for him. You cannot even know if Jesus died for you personally if Limited Atonement is true.

And believing will not save you if you are not elect. As Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:17, if Jesus did not in reality rise from the dead, your faith is vain and you will perish. You can believe Jesus rose from the dead all you want, if Jesus did not rise you will die in your sins.

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Likewise, if Jesus did not in reality die for you personally, your faith is vain. You can believe all you want that Jesus died for you, but if he did not die for you you will die and go to hell forever.

Your faith does not change reality.

 

[Iconoclast]

I was not talking to you winman are you getting paranoid??

 

[steaver]

How do you separate grace from salvation? Please explain that one.

Amen! I wouldn't know how to witness without the doctrines of grace.

 

[Reformed]

A true Calvinist believes that we do not know who can and who can not be saved, thus we must preach The Gospel to The World.

This is not an accurate statement.

Calvinists believe that the Gospel is the means of salvation. In other words, God has ordained the means by which a person comes to faith in Christ. That means is the preaching of the Gospel. Now, to simplify things let me state that there are two categories of Calvinists. The first are Reformed or Reformed-leaning Calvinists. The second category are mainline, evangelical Calvinists. These are often times called neo-Calvinists because they tend to blend contemporary evangelical praxis with Calvinist theology. The former category see the emphasis on fulfilling the Great Commission, not "we must preach The Gospel to The World." The Great Commission's emphasis is on making disciples, not on decisions for Christ. Disciples do have a moment-in-time conversion, but that is not an end to itself. Reformed Calvinists are concerned about disciple making; maturing in Christ in all aspects. So, it is more than just preaching the Gospel so that a person gets saved.

 

[Reynolds]

If a Calvinist says anyone who wants to accept Christ as their savior can, is telling a lie when they know in their heart that is a deceitful statement coming from the beliefs of a Calvinist. This is why there is a huge difference between cals and non cals, and if the Calvinist were true to their beliefs they would preach their beliefs up front. But how do you think that would go? Probably have to close the doors.

I dont fully agree. The true Calvinist believes that the non-elect can not have a desire to be saved. Anyone who wants to can accept Christ because only the "elect" can "want to."

 

[Reynolds]

And which Gospel shall be preached? Limited Atonement or Unlimited Atonement? Irresistible grace or resistible grace? Faith is the gift of God or salvation is the gift of God? Regeneration precedes faith or faith precedes regeneration?

It makes a difference.

D. James Kennedy was a Calvinist. Listen to all his sermons of his you can find (thousands) and see if you can tell if he is Calvinist or Arminian. You can not tell. You also can not find a sermon that did not have the salvation message heavily embedded into it. The true Calvinist does not preach "limited atonement." They teach it, but they preach salvation and let "irresistable grace" run its course with "the elect." Its the same salvation message.

 

[Reynolds]

Oh, but it is a HUGE deal. Do you believe God passes by sinners and lets them go to hell without trying to save them? Is that what Jesus taught?

Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

I don't know if you are aware, but Jesus is the Good Samaritan in this parable. A Samaritan was a half breed, Jesus was the God-man. The oil and wine are the word of God and the Spirit that heals, and the host of the inn is the Holy Spirit who abides with us until Jesus returns.

Did Jesus "pass by" this poor sinner who was perishing as Calvinism teaches God does?

It is a BIG deal. Calvinism attacks the character of God.

I believe God "tries" to save all sinners.

 

[Reynolds]

This is not an accurate statement.

Calvinists believe that the Gospel is the means of salvation. In other words, God has ordained the means by which a person comes to faith in Christ. That means is the preaching of the Gospel. Now, to simplify things let me state that there are two categories of Calvinists. The first are Reformed or Reformed-leaning Calvinists. The second category are mainline, evangelical Calvinists. These are often times called neo-Calvinists because they tend to blend contemporary evangelical praxis with Calvinist theology. The former category see the emphasis on fulfilling the Great Commission, not "we must preach The Gospel to The World." The Great Commission's emphasis is on making disciples, not on decisions for Christ. Disciples do have a moment-in-time conversion, but that is not an end to itself. Reformed Calvinists are concerned about disciple making; maturing in Christ in all aspects. So, it is more than just preaching the Gospel so that a person gets saved.

I did not say it was all they believed. It is an aspect of what they believe. Calvinists do not believe in withholding The Gospel from anyone. There are arminians (including myself) who believe discipleship is the best way to spread The Gospel.

 

[Winman]

I believe God "tries" to save all sinners.

Do you believe it is good to go around teaching people that God chooses to pass by a great many people and let them go to hell, and that God does this because it pleases him and brings him glory? Because that is what Calvinists believe, that quote was from the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Maybe you think that is OK, but it is not OK with me at all.

 

[steaver]

D. James Kennedy was a Calvinist. Listen to all his sermons of his you can find (thousands) and see if you can tell if he is Calvinist or Arminian. You can not tell. You also can not find a sermon that did not have the salvation message heavily embedded into it. The true Calvinist does not preach "limited atonement." They teach it, but they preach salvation and let "irresistable grace" run its course with "the elect." Its the same salvation message.

How far do you think his preaching would have gone had he told the audiences about TULIP? Probably never would have heard of him much.

 

[Reynolds]

Do you believe it is good to go around teaching people that God chooses to pass by a great many people and let them go to hell, and that God does this because it pleases him and brings him glory? Because that is what Calvinists believe, that quote was from the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Maybe you think that is OK, but it is not OK with me at all.

If a Calvinist preaches the same Gospel I preach, why should we fight with each other about academic doctrinal differences that are not affecting our actions?

 

[Reynolds]

How far do you think his preaching would have gone had he told the audiences about TULIP? Probably never would have heard of him much.

Why would he tell the audience about TULIP? It was his academic belief. It did not hinder his evangelism.

 

[Winman]

If a Calvinist preaches the same Gospel I preach, why should we fight with each other about academic doctrinal differences that are not affecting our actions?

Does a Calvinist preach the same gospel you preach? Does a Calvinist interpret John 3:16 as you do?

 

[Reformed]

I did not say it was all they believed. It is an aspect of what they believe. Calvinists do not believe in withholding The Gospel from anyone. There are arminians (including myself) who believe discipleship is the best way to spread The Gospel.

Reynolds,

While Arminians and Calvinists both are motivated to preach the Gospel, it is the theological understanding of both groups that provides their motivation. Their respective theological understanding effects the manner in which the Gospel is presented. Even the content of the message may be different. Let me give you just one example.

Under the Arminian schema the pivotal character in the Gospel presentation is the sinner. Finneyism (named after the 19th century evangelist, Charles Finney) still is the majority position held by Arminians today when it comes to evangelism methods. The Gospel is presented and, to differing degrees, pressure is put on the sinner to make a decision. Whenever you see a church that plays multiple stanzas of "Just as I am" during an altar call, you are witnessing some form or Finneyism at work. Billy Sunday, Billy Graham and Jack Wyrtzen were Finneyistic evangelists (I used the past tense with Billy Graham because his days of public ministry are over due to his age and health).

Under the Reformed Calvinistic schema the pivotal character in the Gospel presentation is Jesus Christ. At its core the Gospel is the proclamation of the Word of God. Whenever the Word of God is proclaimed God is the central character. God is glorified regardless of whether a sinner is converted during a Gospel message. That does mean the Gospel is preached through dry rote. The Gospel still is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes (Romans 1:16). As such it should be preached in power and in truth. Very seldom will you see an altar call in Reformed Calvinistic churches. Why? Because the working of the Holy Spirit in calling sinners to repentance has nothing at all to do with playing on people's emotions. There is no need to give the Holy Spirit some extra time to work. You may see Finneyistic methods used in some neo-Calvinistic churches, but they are not in keeping with the Reformed understanding of biblical evangelism.

 

[Reformed]

How far do you think his preaching would have gone had he told the audiences about TULIP? Probably never would have heard of him much.

Dr. D. James Kennedy was a Reformed Presbyterian preacher. His church subscribed to the Westminster Confession of Faith. From the Bible, he preached on the theological truths of TULIP many times to his congregation, and it was from Dr. Kennedy that the evangelism program Evangelism Explosion was launched.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I very rarely get involved in this debate. I know what I believe and am comfortable with it.

But I don't see the need to keep fighting a fight that has been going on for nearly 2,000 years by good and godly men on both sides of the debate.

Jesus tells to go out and preach the gospel. That is all the motivation we should need. I don't understand why both sides can't just obey and leave the details of election up to God.